924Board.org

Martijnus · Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands

I'm not saying I'm actually gonna do this, but it crossed my mind because I've seen dry sump on my motorbikes and other stuff and it's just great.

A friend of mine had oil sprayers installed in his opel engine and I read this thread: http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=22933
where oil sprayers are mentioned too.

If I should realize my turbo plans combined with LPG injection, oil sprayers would be a great thing.

The dry sump has some advantages. You can have MORE oil in your tank. The extra weight is a downside, but more oil means the heat can be given to more volume, and the same with pollution.

Another advantage is the absence of an oil bath in the oil pan, during cornering could mean surging or other negative effects internally.

No oil in the pan also means less resistance for the crank..

The most interesting option for dry sump is the adaptation of the oil pan.
But when I think of it, this isn´t really possible

Because the oil pan can be lower, the engine can sit lower overall, which should improve handling bigtime!

But when I think of it, there´s not that much oil pan to be removed, except for the part where the oil pickup is. The crossmember probably is the problem.

Anyway, I read in the mentioned topic that bassgt planned to go dry sump, so I´m interested if he can tell me more.

What´s the best way to do dry sump on our engines? Use an external belt driven pump for getting the oil back from the pan to the oil tank?

Oil sprayers? Anyone has seen it on our engines? I know there's a oil gallery through the whole block, so that could be used to fit those things.

I'm not interested in why I shouldn't use dry sump, only how it should be done

_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment

ideola · Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15550 Location: Spring Lake MI

Steve Bassington is using a bolt-on dry sump set up from Pace Products. If I can spring for it, this is the setup I'd like to run.

Re: oil sprayers, here is a good read with cross references:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=23286
_________________
erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made

bass gt · Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject:

Dry sumping out engines is very easy. Not cheap, but very easy.
The standard sump needs to be machined. Basically, if you take the sump and sit it on a flat surface, you need to machine the sump down parallel to the block mating face just at the point where the sump pan meets the shallow section that sits over the crossmember. Do not machhine this shallow section, only the sump pan that hangs below it. The machined section now needs a bottom fabricating, with both a trough to take the pickup pipes, and baffles to direct the oil flow. 2x -12 JIC is fine. Front & back of the new area is best.
Now strip down the stock oil pump, and remove the toothed gear wheel. This will stop the stock pump making pressure.
Fit the PACE dry sump pump i had them make, and all ancilliary pipe work and oil tank.
Finally, seal all vents and such in the block. The pump will create considerable vacuum in the block, which is a good thing. Having air leaks is not.
Enjoy the significant HP benefits. Dont count the money or time it's cost you
And sadly, because of the limitations of the crossmember, you cannot lower the engine, so no gain there

Steve
_________________
Front Wheel Drive is the Devil's work.

dash16 · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 255 Location: Cali Cali

perhaps you can consider a crank scraper to counteract the windage. May not be as good as a dry sump, but it will be cost effective.
_________________
1987 Porsche 924S Black/Black. 5-spd.
Options: AFX C79 261 398 423 650 651 657

1987 Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth Pearl Black/Black. 5-spd.

STUTTGART PREVAILS

ideola · Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15550 Location: Spring Lake MI

Martijnus · Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands

So if I understand it correctly, the stock oil pump isn't used, and the PACE pump feeds the oil in the engine through the stock pickup pipe and through the stock oil pump channels (keeping the pressure valve intact)?

Why shouldn't I modify the shallow section of the oil pan? Is it because it's already too close to the crankshaft/con rods caps or is there another reason?

I assume the PACE pump is apparently a dual pump? One for pan-to-tank which creates the crank vacuum too, and one to feed oil from tank-to-engine.

Besides the mods to the pan and vents, there aren't any other modifications needed? (I couldn't think of anything).

The oil pressure is still 'regulated'/limited by the stock pump housing?

I wonder if there isn't a cheaper way than buying a pace pump.
Oil isn't the thing I want to do in a risky manner, but with the right parts, skills and creativity it should be possible to build another system.

As long as my pressure gauge reads the same values, I can be confident that the engine gets its lubrication right.
Oil sprayers probably have big influence on the pressure (however, the pressure limiter in the pump should compensate unless the oil flow is maxed out already).

I'll see if I can find some info on the specs of dry sump pumps and systems. Since the pace pump apparently pumps air too, not every pump will be suitable.

I wonder what happens if you'd maintain the stock pump for oil feed and just add a pump which sucks the oil out of the pan to the oil tank. only problem is that the capacity of that pump needs to be greater than the capacaty of the stock pump. In any case the return pump should always have bigger capacity.

Edit: To be clear, by the oil squirters I meant squirters in the engine block, not on the con rods.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment

Rich H · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:33 am Post subject:

Watches with interest....
_________________
1994 Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress...
1980 Porsche 924 S2 DITC Turbo - Original spec
1978 Homo-Sapiens - Tired spec
1953 Landrover S1 - Pensioner Spec

ideola · Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15550 Location: Spring Lake MI

I've looked at dozens of suppliers of dry sump setups, and priced out multiple configurations. By the time you source all of the parts and do the custom fabrication and guess work on getting the crank and pump pulleys sorted, there is no way you can touch the price of the Pace setup, and that is even at a 1.5x multiplier on USD to GBP. From everything I've seen the Pace setup is not only the least expensive path to dry sumping a 924, it has the added benefit of being completely bolt on.
_________________
erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made

Lizard · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:29 am Post subject:

Dan,

I would not recommend buying the IJ scraper.

I purchased one for my 928 (stock 5.0L bottom) and was quoted 4-6 weeks for delivery.
After 4+ months and numerous emails asking status and NONE of them being returned. I posted on rennlist.
THAT night he responded to my latest email. Saying he would be shipping it right away. He didnt, and he didnt send it priority overnight or offer a partial discount or refund for the length of time waited for the product.

All told it was over 5 months before I saw the product. Cost was $550 + shipping.

Then after getting it. The piece is something which any DIYer could build with some sheet metal plasma cutter (or equal) and a small welder for a FRACTION of the cost. I mean maybe $50 in materials.

So save your money on that, and put it towards the drysump.

As to the price of the Pace unit, it is a very reasonable price instead of building it yourself which the average person would not have the tools to do.
_________________
3 928s,

924RACR · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:21 am Post subject:

Yeah - I got my crankscraper from IJ virtually instantly... but others, including Chris Marsh, have had pretty bad wait times etc for theirs...

OTOH, the product quality is great, no complaints there, both mine and the other one I installed (a teflon sandwich style in a 944 S2).
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

Lizard · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject:

Vaughan,

The quality of mine appears to be OK.
However I havent installed it onto the engine yet and I have heard a couple of horror stories from other 928 guys that he had to redo them because the holes were all way off

I am actually kinda nervous about it.

if you order from him, you will get the product. But the question is how long, and what will you have to do to get him to respond?
_________________
3 928s,

bass gt · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject:

Martijnus · Joined: 29 Dec 2006 Posts: 2019 Location: Netherlands

Thanks steve, you've made it all clear

About that pump... I meant if I would look for an alternative pump instead of the pace pump, it must be able to pump air too. And as far as I know not every oil pump likes to pump air. I guess you thought I meant that the pace pump can't pump air...?

15-20 HP is more than 10% on a NA engine (and even 931).

That would mean that roughly I have 10% more power to keep the engine running, so that would mean I need less hp for normal driving...which improves engine efficiency a lot.

The reason you'd have more top end HP can only be less internal resistance...right?
I like that

edit: at the moment my oil temp goes to 80deg C and my water doesn't get above 80, 90 in heavy traffic. I'm told that indeed these temperatures should be about equal for the least stress in the engine.
_________________
"Rule: Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun." (C. Bell)

924 "50-jahre", 1981.
MSII/extra, LPG, ITB's, 5lug.
To be turbo'ed in a while.
Killed her at the Nurburgring, Porscheless at the moment

bass gt · Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject:

Hi Martijnus,

No probs. The problem you may encounter is not finding a suitable pump, but mounting it. The PACE unit is specially machined t bolt straight on, and using a second bottom crank pulley, the belt will be at the ideal tension.
Regarding the air pump issue, the PACE has 2 scavenge pumps vs 1 pressure pump. So thescavenge side will always out perform the pressure side, which is how it generates the vacuum.
However, despite the relatively cheap price now that the Euro & £ parity there is a lot of additional bits required, so this is never a cheap mod, but well worth it in my opinion

Steve
_________________
Front Wheel Drive is the Devil's work.

Joes924Racer · Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:47 am Post subject:

Should runa few degrees cooler and if ya get a nice cooler well then shit itll run alot cooler and thats on top of the other advantages of goin dry sump with a pump
_________________
1979 porsche 924 Na
1980 porsche Turbo 931GT Replica
Have u ever driven a turbo.