924Board.org

[Rick MacLaren]

Look, Vaughan, I've tried, ok? This person has tried to discredit my advice NUMEROUS times, it is HARRASSMENT and it HAS TO STOP. Recent harrassment includes:

THIS IS BAD ADVICE type comments for my recommending TOLULENE (TOLUENE) for gas. SHELL and SUNOCO both use this chemical to raise octane in gas, the 944 Turbo boys on Rennlist all use it and SO DO YOU in your everyday gas.

I'm TIRED of being chased and harrassed by this NAMELESS and ANONYMOUS person who gets pleasure from discreditation.

I would like you to either (a) Request of this person that his real identity come out to PREVENT harrassment or (b) find his machine number and forbid this person from performing further harrassment.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 02:51 ]

[teo]

Why don't you guys leave each other alone?

Rick, stop commenting gohim's posts, and gohim stop commenting Rick's posts.

If there's an advice from any of you that some of the members think is inadequate, there are other knowledgable members to point that out. Or if there are more point of views in the topic, we can debate on it.That's what this board is for.

regards,
Teo
aka
Attila Freisleben

[Rick MacLaren]

I stopped making any negative commentary Teo. At the request of Vaughan, and I understood he was INSTRUCTED or ASKED to do the same. Now it constitutes harassment.

Coming here for the sole purpose of discrediting my advice (i.e., if you search, you find him making only really a single comment today, for just one example, to discredit) is certainly frustrating for me and I suspect this 'lurker' will carry this harassment offline.

Discrediting another's credibility is a reasonable definition of harassment. What the future holds, who knows. I don't want to find out.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 03:37 ]

[gohim]

It would not be legal to add Tolulene to gas here in the US.

If is was, US Gas Refiners would not have been forced to substitute alcohol for MBTE. They would have simply added Tolulene and removed the MBTE. At one time, I believe that Tolulene was added to gas here in the US, but it is currently being, or has been phased out due it's toxicity.

Tolulene is high toxic, and it has a high residual, it does not go away, just like MBTE. The former USAF Norton AF Base is around eight miles from here. The underground plume of toxic polution from the base (including tolulene, dumped on the ground during 40 something years that the base was open) is slowly moving North, and to the West, and East, and the water supply wells for the surrounding cities are being shut-down because of it.

Tolulene is especially dangerous because it can be absorbed directly into the blood stream through the skin.

On top of that Tolulene eats rubber.

Just because you read that someone else adds Tolulene to their gas does not mean that it is smart, or safe. What? Someone else does it, so it must be Okay? MTBE was supposed to be safe, but in the short time that the gas refiners have added it to gas, it has poluted much of the free running waters of the U.S, and because of leaks in underground storage tanks, MBTE now threatens the water supplies of many cities and towns throughout the US. MBTE works great in the car, it's better for your car than the Lead that it replaced. MBTE IS NOT GOOD FOR LIVING THINGS, AND TOLULENE IS PROBABLY WORSE.

Rick, before you SPOUTED about how great it is the add Tolulene to your gas, did you do any research, besides reading somewhere that somebody has tried adding Tolulene to theirs gas? Have you tried Tolulene in your car, over a period of time to see if it is safe for your fuel system? Have you tried ingesting it, breathing it, or exposing your bare skin to it?

[ This Message was edited by: gohim on 2002-05-31 03:56 ]

[ This Message was edited by: gohim on 2002-05-31 04:10 ]

[Rick MacLaren]

It's in your gas already Gohim. And your questions are ABSURD and reveal how little you know about THINKING. But what would I expect from an anonymous person who does not have to take any responsibility for the things he says? For example, you asked:

Have you tried ingesting it?

No. Have you tried ingesting 91 octane?

You asked:

...breathing it?

No. Have you tried breathing Sunoco 94? Kids used to snort toluene and get high. So what?

...or exposing your bare skin to it?

Gasoline makes my hands try out too. I didn't say you WASH with it, or put it on your cornflakes, I said you put it in your GAS TANK.

http://www.shellchemicals.com/toluene

What is toluene?

"Toluene is extracted from 'reformate', which is a major component of high octane gasoline. Like benzene, it is a clear, colourless liquid, with a similar 'aromatic' smell. However, it is of lower volatility due to the attachment of a methyl group (CH3) to the ring of the benzene molecule.

Applications

Toluene is used to make isocyanates which are, in turn, used in combination with polyols to manufacture polyurethanes. Polyurethanes are then used in the manufacture of a wide variety of goods such as foams for furniture and bedding, coatings for floors and furniture, artificial sports tracks, ski suits and waterproof leisure wear. Toluene is used to make phenol, particularly in Europe, and it is also an important solvent.

A lot of toluene is converted into either benzene or xylenes, as these aromatics are in greater demand. This conversion is achieved either by a process known as hydrodealkylation, which strips off the methyl group from toluene, or by disproportionation, in which the methyl group is removed from one toluene molecule and attached to another, creating one benzene and one xylene.

Toluene's high octane and low vapour pressure make it a very desirable blending component, and substantial volumes are used in motor gasoline."

Now who's spouting?

You asked:

"Have you tried ingesting it, breathing it, or exposing your bare skin to it"

No, and I think here's another example of threatening talk from you that I find abhorrant. All the sites I listed gave perfectly reasonable information, and now you're turning it into "have I tried it on my skin"? That is sick. One should wear gloves while using it. But no need for fear as it's also ALREADY in your gasoline.

Vaughan, I suggest, again, this person is not a safe person to have here. He pursues, finds and harasses anonymously.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 04:40 ]

[gohim]

I didn't post a comment about rick's post on adding Tolulene to gas because rick wrote it.

I was reading the new posts, and noticed that someone wrote a post with a very bad idea, which is not legal here in the US, for a very good reason.

This is not just bad advice, this is seriously dangerous to the health of the person who would follow rick's comment, and a health risk to everyone around.

Rick has some poor and misguided ideas. I no longer bother to respond to any of them unless they are illegal, and/or potentially dangerous.

Do some research, maybe go up to the EPA Website. You should be able to find information on what Tolulene is, what you can do with it, and what it does to living things.

Then you can decide for yourself, about whether it would be safe to use as rick suggests, or a hazardous chemical as I suggest.

[Rick MacLaren]

Lie. Your claim to my post, which you CHASED down only to discredit, had ONLY to do with it eating rubber, a false claim. Now you've turned environmentalist? Or health watch critic? You know what? Your harassment has now backfired on you, cause you're not a good DOCTOR or a good ENVIRONMENTALIST either. Read and learn:

Toluene
CAS# 108-88-3

February 2001

This fact sheet answers the most frequently asked health questions about toluene. For more information, you may call the ATSDR Information Center at 1-888-422-8737. This fact sheet is one in a series of summaries about hazardous substances and their health effects. This information is important because this substance may harm you. The effects of exposure to any hazardous substance depend on the dose, the duration, how you are exposed, personal traits and habits, and whether other chemicals are present.

HIGHLIGHTS: Exposure to toluene occurs from breathing contaminated workplace air, in automobile exhaust, some consumer products paints, paint thinners, fingernail polish, lacquers, and adhesives. Toluene affects the nervous system. Toluene has been found at 959 of the 1,591 National Priority List sites identified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

What is toluene?

Toluene is a clear, colorless liquid with a distinctive smell. Toluene occurs naturally in crude oil and in the tolu tree. It is also produced in the process of making gasoline and other fuels from crude oil and making coke from coal.

Toluene is used in making paints, paint thinners, fingernail polish, lacquers, adhesives, and rubber and in some printing and leather tanning processes.

What happens to toluene when it enters the environment?

Toluene enters the environment when you use materials that contain it. It can also enter surface water and groundwater from spills of solvents and petrolieum products as well as from leasking underground storage tanks at gasoline stations and other facilities.
When toluene-containing products are placed in landfills or waste disposal sites, the toluene can enter the soil or water near the waste site.

*** Toluene does not usually stay in the environment long. ***

*** Toluene does not concentrate or buildup to high levels in animals. ***

How might I be exposed to toluene?

Breathing contaminated workplace air or automobile exhaust.
Working with gasoline, kerosene, heating oil, paints, and lacquers.
Drinking contaminated well-water.
Living near uncontrolled hazardous waste sites containing toluene products.

How can toluene affect my health?

Toluene may affect the nervous system. Low to moderate levles can cause tiredness, confusion, weakness, drunken-type actions, memory loss, nausea, loss of appetite, and hearing and color vision loss. These symptoms usually disappear when exposure is stopped.

Inhaling High levels of toluene in a short time can make you feel light-headed, dizzy, or sleepy. It can also cause unconsciousness, and even death.

High levels of toluene may affect your kidneys.

How likely is toluene to cause cancer?

Studies in humans and animals generally indicate that toluene does not cause cancer.

The EPA has determined that the carcinogenicity of toluene can not be classified.

How does toluene affect children?

It is likely that health effects seen in children exposed to toluene will be similar to the effects seen in adults.

Some studies in animals suggest that babies may be more sensitive than adults.

Breathing very high levels of toluene during pregnancy can result in children with birth defects and retard mental abilities, and growth. We do not know if toluene harms the unborn child if the mother is exposed to low levels of toluene during pregnancy.

How can families reduce the risk of exposure to toluene?

Use toluene-containing products in well-ventilated areas.

When not in use, toluene-containing products should be tightly covered to prevent evaporation into the air.

Is there a medical test to show whether I've been exposed to toluene?

There are tests to measure the level of toluene or its breakdown products in exhaled air, urine, and blood. To determine if you have been exposed to toluene, your urine or blood must be checked within 12 hours of exposure. Several other chemicals are also changed into the same breakdown products as toluene, so some of these tests are not specific for toluene.

Has the federal government made recommendations to protect human health?

EPA has set a limit of 1 milligram per liter of drinking water (1 mg/L).

Discharges, releases, or spills of more than 1,000 pounds of toluene must be reported to the National Response Center.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has set a limit of 200 parts toluene per million of workplace air (200 ppm).

Source of Information

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). 2000. Toxicological profile for toluene (Update). Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service.

Where can I get more information?

ATSDR can tell you where to find occupational and environmental health clinics. Their specialists can recognize, evaluate, and treat illnesses resulting from exposure to hazardous substances. You can also contact your community or state health or environmental quality department if you have any more questions or concerns.

For more information, contact:


Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology
1600 Clifton Road NE, Mailstop E-29
Atlanta, GA 30333
Phone: 1-888-422-8737
FAX: (404)498-0057

Toluene got a bad rep from KIDS INHALING IT. For God sake. Stop the harassment.

Harassment, Gohim, by any other name is still harassment.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 03:59 ]

[Rick MacLaren]

And this comment, made by Gohim:

"This is not just bad advice, this is seriously dangerous to the health of the person who would follow rick's comment, and a health risk to everyone around.

Rick has some poor and misguided ideas. I no longer bother to respond to any of them unless they are illegal, and/or potentially dangerous."

Is now potentially libellous.

Look for material that identifies a person or an entity.

Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the person or entity identified?

If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would the harm be the result of an explicit statement.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 05:37 ]

[gohim]

The information that you reprinted proves my point, Tolulene is a hazardous chemical, not safe for adding to your gas. It does not go away, and as the information that you shared shows, Tolulene is present in more than half of the hazardous sites designated by the EPA.

Tolulene eats rubber. Just as the alcohol added to gas in many states by the refiners will damage the fuel systems of many cars.

As I wrote earlier, Tolulene was added to gas by many refiners in small amounts, but has been, or is being phased out of gasoline because it is highly toxic (just like lead, and MBTE).

[Rick MacLaren]

It is already in your gasoline. That is how they raise octane. Gasoline is on the SAME list!!!

Your comments in General already constitute libellous and potentially slanderous comments on my credibility. I've notified the Board administration and I'm hoping to hear back from them.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 05:37 ]

[Rick MacLaren]

See DEFAMATION article:

http://journal.law.ufl.edu/~techlaw/1/inman.html


{3} As bright minds find comfort in "hiding" on the Internet, they often fail to take responsibility for their views. Instead they sometimes elect to criticize the views of others, feeling that they are immune from harm so long as they continue to attack. Such attacks, as most Internet users know, are called flames and are all too common elements of everyday correspondence in discussion groups, newsgroups, and even one-to-one correspondence. A Web page labelled "Free Speech on the Net" offers the following as advice: "If you cannot filter what irks you, ignore it," but the truth of the matter is that repeated flames need not be ignored; flaming is serious. [3]

{12} Clearly, the central issue becomes responsibility. Trying electronic communication defamation cases, attorneys may have a difficult time establishing duty and proximate cause. However, if all users bear ultimate responsibility for their accounts, then both components are more easily defined. Today's bright minds would not be able to hide behind pseudonyms and endless connecting points; instead, they would be held to any remark, positive or negative, that they have made. And, if every address is to have a definable user, flames will be more directly traceable, and proximate cause may be more easily established.

{13} In a world desperately in need of understanding and tolerance, disagreements are common. It is how participants in communications handle such disagreements that shapes today's complex social arena. Flames are serious, personal attacks possessing no relation to the spirit of cooperative learning or to active discussion, and they should be treated as such under the law. If the law does not keep pace with the ever-growing breadth and depth of technology, mankind will suffer.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 04:45 ]

[ltgland]

errr kids. quit it....

If you want to justify your arguements, post links to other websites, with a full legal/scientific justification, then get the wigheads and labcoats to slug it out

dudes, calm down.


OR

we can solve this by having a drag race like in them teenage movies... fight behind the bike shed?


seriously dudes, it aint the end of the world, calm down. Fighting over fuel additive, who cares!

[friskynibbles]

i appreciate all the help that both of you have provided. arguing about what is better is productive BUT getting personal, using slanderous language and questioning the other's credibility is not appropriate.
just agree to disagree.

[Rick MacLaren]

I think I'll just contact my lawyer. I've had it.

The site allows anonymous attacks on credibility, mine, and it matters to ME. I have a real name and identity I use here, and the anonymity of the attacks by Gohim allow him to defame, and to hide behind anonymity too long.

"This is not just bad advice, this is seriously dangerous to the health of the person who would follow rick's comment, and a health risk to everyone around."

False, personal, defaming.

"Rick has some poor and misguided ideas. I no longer bother to respond to any of them unless they are illegal, and/or potentially dangerous."

False, personal opinion, defaming.

This is grossly unfair. How is it fair that I get defamed while an anonymous person, hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, can make any comment he wants about my credibility?

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-31 04:52 ]

[gohim]

rick,

I agree, you should contact your lawyer. Ask him what your liability would be in the case that someone actually followed your advice, and was injured, or killed, or injured or killed someone while following your advice.

You should also ask him about the legality of copying, selling, or distributing copyrighted materials without the permission of the original author and publisher.

Ask him what the consequences for the operator/s of a Website would be.

Ask him what the definition of Libel and Slander are, and how the terms are used in the US.