924Board.org

[Chris924]

Hello everyone!
I would like to know the opinions of everybody here if this seems like a feasable scenario. I would very much like a VERY fast 924, I'm not to concerned with $$$ but I will be doing all the work myself. This project is not meant to be a "investment" but more of a "money hole", the short of it: I want an expensive and fast 924, because the lines ARE so clean!

SO, ANYWAY

Do you guys think a 924 Turbo engine could make 300 RWHP reliably? 2.2L Stroker kit(or larger?), Stand-alone engine manangment, shed excess weight, port-polish, 951 intercooler, balance-blueprint, different turbo(change intake setup), etc, etc, etc...
A good 951 engine/tranny combo might be $2-4K so this sets my engine budget. I want to know if the engine is worth modifiying, or go the 944 Turbo engine route(easy HP).

Chris
I realize that the modifications proposed would exceed the value of the car, perhaps many times over, and just doing the mods would lower my resale value. This doesn't really bother me as I WANT to do this as an act of passion and education, I also want to represent the "lowly" 924 a little. ;^D

[AznDrgn]

If you look at the projects page David Ewing did some of what you are looking into doing and estimates that he'll have 250HP when it is all said and done. John has also done some extensive mods with his NA and estimates about 200HP. It is possible to get the HP numbers up there it is just gonna cost you some money as you well know. I personally think that if you want to do it go ahead and go for it I know that I want to and I'm saving up so I can eventually get to it.

[Benski]

Just some thoughts:

I'd stay away from a stroker kit if you plan on going high boost. You aren't ensured of the same strength as the factory forged crank. They either have to modify your existing, or fab a new one - and in both cases you're taking a risk.

But realistically. If you're crazy about the 924 body style - get an 87 or 88 924S and put the 944 turbo engine in. It'll bolt right in.

-benski

[Peter_in_AU]

[eturbo924]

I suggest the 951 engine. It had a much higher start point and many performance houses to talk to about more power.

The 924S is a good candidate also since it has the upgrades nessesary to bolt the 944 turbo engine into it. The older 924 and 944s need much more modifications to the nose panel to accept intercoolers and such.

I can get a 1987 944 turbo motor if you are interested let me know

Eric
Eric.Lynch@itt.com

[Rick MacLaren]

I'd agree that a 924S platform with a 944 Turbo engine would shake your teeth loose and snap your neck. If money is no problem, do it, but KNOW that you are investing about
$8,000 USD to do the conversion.

[AppleBit]

Ok, your point is to make your 924 a sleeper. You want power and are serious about paying to get it. You could make your 924 get to 60 in the mid 5 second range (like mine) with a lot of modifications and pay around $5000-$9000 (I know that is a serious range...)

You could also spend that money and get yourself a crate GM V8 engine with 3xx HP and the motor mounts to just bolt it right in...

So, it all depends on which route you want to go. You could use the factory original engine and get fast, or you can get a GM V8 engine. You could get even 400 hp engines from GM that are still very reliable.

Simple list... If you made the 924 fast:
reduce weight with some fiberglass parts & free weight reduction.... $1000
lower engine rebuild.... $3000
head work (P&P + cam).... $1000
Auto Vario cam timing and DIS.... $1000
flywheel lightened... $200


V8 conversion:
motor mount kit....$2000
engine.............$4500
misc.............$1500


recommended but not necessary for either conversion:
4 wheel disc....$1000
5 speed tranny.... $800



Now both figures are a little higher but that is to scare you... if you are serious, you are going to have to choose which route to go and why. The easiest way is to drop a V8 in there.... The funnest way is to modify the 4 cyl and blow the pants off the V8's and then pull into a gas station and they want to see under your hood and you tell them it's only a 4 cyl and have to open the hood to prove it...



_________________
Classic British Sports Car Restoration v6 + v8 Engine Conversion Swaps

Porsche 924 Wide Body LS1 Corvette 500 Horsepower Engine

[Rick MacLaren]

Jon...the fibreglass panels you refer to are 944 panels. He'll lose the shape he's seeking in the basic 924 body design...or do you have a line on stock 924 panels?

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-04-03 03:29 ]

[Zuffen]

fiberglass hood and nose panels are avialable. Lexan rear glass, quarter glass would drop the weight.

You could easily make 924 fenders or have them made. The D prod fenders in fiberglass may be available. I fyou went with a full cage you could gut the door, a few extra pounds.

_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[Cbass]

Weren't the D productions widebodies?

My advice is check out the 924S as your starting point, it'll be a lot simpler and cheaper, and you don't run the risk of destroying a car.

There are a quite a few examples of a 924S that didn't have it's timing belt changed, and ended up with a blown motor. These can be had for about a $1000. You can get a very low mileage 951 motor for about $3000. It won't cost much in the way of extras for the swap, just a new radiator, a bit of custom work for mounting the turbo and IC.

Start with the suspension, brakes and tires first.

[dwak]

Some hard truths for the 924n/a vs 944, 924S, and 931 (long)
924 turbo


Joined: Jul 30, 2001
Posts: 87
From: Costa Mesa, CA
Posted: 2001-08-09 18:34

I know this is going to seem like I'm picking on the n/a crowd. That's not my intention. So many questions get
posted here about 924 and 924S upgrades, and on the Pelican board 944n/a upgrades are discussed
constantly.

I know you guys love your cars. I really liked my 924n/a also. But there really isn't much you can do to make it
a fast car without spending a ridiculous amount of money on it.

If your intention is only to make your car faster, which you are not willing to get rid of for personal reasons
(love, worship, unnatural attachment ) this does not apply to you. If you are out to prove a point (the "I
can make a 924n/a fast and I'm willing to sell a kidney to do so" crowd) this does not apply to you. This also
does not apply to classed race cars.

For the rest of you...pick a benchmark for the straight-line performance you'd like to achieve. For me, it is the
Mustang. I want my car to be about as fast as an unmodified, new, manual Mustang GT. The Mustang is
approximately 3270 lbs and makes 260hp. That gives it a power-to-weight ratio of about 12.6 lbs/hp. The
924n/a weighs about 2600 lbs. It makes about 110-115hp. For argument's sake, let's say 115. That give the
924 n/a a power-to-weight ratio of 22.6 lbs/hp.

So, what are your options? You can modify the engine and remove weight...both will make your car faster.

Let's take the free weight savings Jon McCullough lists on his site, http://come.to/924.org. Back seat,
insulation mat, AC system, dampening mat, charcoal canister and luggage cover. In my opinion, this is as
far as most street drivers would go. You'll probably keep both front seats, the carpeting, etc. Using the
numbers Jon listed, your grand total is around 200 lbs. Your new power-to-weight ratio: 20.87 lbs/hp.

Okay, time to start modifying the engine. Porting the head, using a bigger camshaft, a header, a larger
exhaust, a test pipe, a larger throttle body, and bumping the compression should yield around 150hp. It'll
also set you back...around $1300 if you port the heads yourself and do your own installations. This is around
the theoretical street maximum HP for the 924. There are other small tricks you can do, but none of them will
have a great effect on horsepower. After this point, your upgrades are thousands of dollars and include
things like stroker kits, 931 heads and intakes with custom pistons, etc. Remember we're talking about
street cars here. Anyway, where did that round of modifications get you? 16.0 lbs/hp.

Sounds good, right? So where would you fit in with modern car power-to-weight ratios? You'd be a hair
slower than a Toyota MR2 Spyder, slower still than a new Acura Integra GS-R.

If this is your goal, congratulations. You haven't spent a bundle of money, and you're probably pretty happy
with the streetability of your modifications.

Do you have a fast car? Not really. That Mustang is still making you look pretty bad, and even the unmodified
Integra your little sister drives is faster.

Where does the 924S/944n/a fit in all this? The road here is brighter. You're starting out with better
power-to-weight ratios than the 924n/a guys. Let's take a look:

For kicks we'll use the 160hp version of the 924S. At 2734 lbs, your power-to-weight ratio is 17.0 lbs/hp.
The early 944 weighs 2675 lbs and is 147hp. That puts it at 18.2 lbs/hp. The later 944 was 160hp at 2844
lbs, or 17.8 lbs/hp. We'll assume that you can remove the same amount of weight from these cars, and
adjust the numbers accordingly:

924S: 15.8 lbs/hp
944(early): 16.8 lbs/hp
944(late): 16.5 lbs/hp

A Huntley stage II MAF kit is $1500, a stage I kit is $1200. That's a lot of money. Let's say you find some
money in your old jeans and decide to get the stage II MAF kit, a header, test pipe, exhaust, and K&N air
filter. According to Huntley, the stage II kit is worth 15hp, probably at the rear wheels. Let's say with the
header and other goodies, you get 40 flywheel horsepower. You'd be right around 200hp now. Sure, it was a
big investment (around $2000+) let's see how the numbers come out now...

924S: 12.7 lbs/hp
944(early): 13.2 lbs/hp
944(late): 13.2 lbs/hp

Woohoo! The 924S is finally in Mustang territory. Of course, you had to spend a bunch of money to get here.
You might have been able to buy a 944 turbo instead at this point.

Now for the best part: The 924 Turbo
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to use the Series 2 931 (because that's what I have ).
The series 2 931 is 2779 lbs, and 154hp. That puts the power-to-weight ratio at 18.0 lbs/hp. Ouch! What can
we do about this?

Okay same weight savings here as with the other cars. We're down to 16.8 lbs/hp now.

Here comes the fun part...

Boost controller: $60
944 intercooler: $200
Piping: $200
Look on the Mustang guy's face: Priceless

The intercooler and associated piping add approximately 35 lbs. But the result is inspiring. At 10psi of
boost (0.68 bar) the car makes approximately 210hp. Where does that put you on the power-to-weight
scale? 12.5 lbs/hp. Mustang territory, for less than $500. If you're brave enough to run 0.9 bar you're looking
at approximately 230hp. That would put you at 11.4 lbs/hp. You could now keep up with a Boxster S, outrun a
Honda S2000, and almost catch a 928S4.

A fuel mod would allow you to run 1 bar of boost or more. This would likely put you in the 245+ horsepower
range, but it would probably also eat $1000 or more of your dollars.

Of course, your new competition would be Mustang Cobras, the NSX, and the new, 333hp M3.

So which car did you want to modify again?

Long live the 931...

_________________
Jon Furst
'81 931/951 intercooler projec

[Cbass]

Good argument. There's just one little thing you didn't write up.

Get a 2800 lb 924S with a blown engine, for chicken scratch ($1500). Get a 951S motor, with intercooler and rad for a little more($3000). Do the work yourself, and budget a bit extra, for things like fasteners and beer.($500)

Total cost, $5000. The little extras can also include raising the boost, so your 951 motor makes 300hp.

You can reduce the weight to around 2600lbs, keep your interior, keep it streetable, and have a power to weight ration of 8.6lbs/1hp.

There is still more power in the motor too, and pretty cheap, compared with NA motors.

You have to spend most of your money in a big chunk for the parts, but for around the same cost, you can get the 951S parts car whole, and just take what you need. After words, sell the parts on Ebay, and you'll almost make your money back.

[924 turbo]

[Rick MacLaren]

CBass is right, the 924S and 944 Turbo engine is the best bang for the buck. Look, I'm a 931 fan, but I've been in the 944 Turbo and it's just plain fast.

You can pick up an '87 944 Turbo engine with enough electronics and hardware to make 300 HP...just go the MAF/chip route.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-04-04 00:56 ]

[eturbo924]

Ok Want the entire set up out of an 87 951? (102K miles)
I have the hot set up with Turbo S DME and KLR boxes. I can get you the complete engine with DME & KLR for $2700! Then just bolt and go. Of course you should think about upgrading the tranmission suspension and brakes before you overpower them.

Oh one other thing to spark you imagination... Could sell you the Complete engine/DEM/KLR ($2700) and then a 968 6speed and appropriate components.... 6 speed with Torsen limited slip! Costly though. "The trans with torque tube , bell housing, clutch assy and axles is $4250 on top of the engine cost"

Though this would be a great 924S. Already have another poster here putting the 968 engine in his 924S!

Let me know if you are interested.

Eric
Eric.Lynch@itt.com
Eturbo924@yahoo.com