924Board.org

[Scott Sanda]

Not to me,

While the other sanctions are great, SCCA is still the only real National race program out there, and they were the first place to give the 924/944 series cars someplace to race.

To me, the other sanctions are like SCCA regionals, which vary from area to area. Some have great programs, some don't.

In Area 5 (basically Chicago/Milwaukee/Blackhawk valley and racing at RA, BHF and Autobahn) we have a 14 race regional series consisting of a lot of double regionals and a few singles. We also created SPO/SPU and ITE1/ITE2 as classes so non "scca" cars can run. The whole 944 cup series concept would fit within that framework as a race within a race, just like the Touring challenge for corvette people do.

I'd love to see you all at Road America in August, or at any of the other Area 5 races.

Scott

[sequential]

[jjadczak]

Oh no I fear this thread is headed toward a SCCA gripe session

Well I run in both series and I have views on both. SCCA is something I've grown up with. My father ran in HProd about 25 years ago and back then the landscape was entirely different than it is today. I think back then he really enjoyed running in HP. If I had the time and money I would like to run GT or production cause that's a lot more fun than IT, but based on the landscape today I would have to think seriously about playing there. Case in point, why is the SCCA making it difficult for some IT guys to cross over into Prod and GT? There is someone in our 924 community who wants to run his car in Prod but the SCCA is requiring him to run drum rear brakes. What are some of these old guys afraid of?

If you go over to the SCCA Prod forums it can be depressing. It seems to me that they are way too stuck in their ways to try to encourage new blood from coming into their turf.

In our region of the country, North East, we DO have other options and based on our exp with SCCA it has not been a completely pleasant one. Maybe if we were based in the Midwest it might be different. I do respect and know that this is a volunteer activity and we have been asked to pitch in at SCCA events to help out in areas where they need volunteers, but there are too many egos involved and I have concerns about bringing in new guys to SCCA events because after spending one weekend with these people they may never come back.

Also, we feel that SCCA does not give us the track time we find in NASA. For example in a typical SCCA regional racing weekend we may get 1 hour of total track time for the weekend with 1 race that counts (practice, qualifying, race). In some cases when available we try to do the double regionals but even then it is not the same amount of track time we get with NASA. Now as NASA grows in popularity that may change.

NASA officials are really nice too. Sure there are egos there but they approach this as a business and their bottom line is to try in every case to accomodate us racers. We feel welcome and the other drivers there are really nice and we have formed lasting relationships with these people. It's nice to see that sportsmanship.

I've heard it all about NASA, it's not safe, it's not the SCCA there are not enough corner workers, etc but I feel safe enough to race there.

I hope this post has not offended anyone personally and I have not completely given up on the SCCA forever.
_________________
Jeremy "I'm Faster than My Dad" Jadczak
#53 Porsche 924 (sold '06)
#35 Porsche 924 (R.I.P. '06)
#141 Porsche 944 944 Cup
FLAG Motorsports
"Fast Lucky And Good"

[sequential]

No , no intention made in turning this into an SCCA gripe session just my observation of a club that has missed really in getting it on. Just my opinion, as i no longer race with them.
I can trace my first experience with the SCCA as far back as 1982 when it was the only and best deal in town, but i believe they have lost their way.
Mostly you are voicing exactly what i have been harping about , Dealing with
those who have lost their way and is dragging the club with them without any outcry from the inmates.
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2

[924RACR]

Yes, I hear ya, but I do think things have improved notably in the last two years for SCCA. Not that they've done everything they need, there's still some catching up, but they're far less behind than they were.

PS - turbo ARE back! Just check out the Touring classes...
_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Scott Sanda]

I won't even attempt to say that SCCA has had some real issues, especially at the National level. OTOH, there are a lot of good people trying to make the changes needed, and we are succeding to a degree.

What everyone misses in talking about SCCA is that each and every region in the 5 divisions is it's own entity, and therin lies both the strength and the weakness. There is a national rules set for everyone, but everyone apples it differently.

Some regions band together and create growing, open to all regional racing. CHI/MIL/BVR/LOL is an example of such. Some of the NW area regions do it as well. Some of them are so myoptic that they can only look backwards.

If you want to do all your racing within a smallish area, as I did for years (Road America, Blackhawk, Gingerman, Gratten, Putnam Park) then by all means run NASA, Midwest council, Waterford hills SCC, Porshce Club, and SCCA regionals. At one time I raced with 4 sanctions, now I race primarily with 2, SCCA and PCA.

If you want to run a true Nation Wide program, with uniform rules and mostly uniform enforcement, your only choice is SCCA National Classes. The only true national championship is the Runoffs. No other organization has a rules set, or organization to match. (and you don't need to be 50 to win the runoffs, my friend Toby Grahovic is in his 20's).

Bottom line, most drivers don't give a hoot what sanction they race with, they just want to race, and most of the people on this site take it one step further and have a specific margue/car they want to race.

I may have done myself a disservice getting involved in Chicago Region SCCA the way I am, but I'm trying hard to make a difference, as are a lot of others. I feel that SCCA does the best job of catering to the most diverse group of cars and classes out there.

There was a point about 7 years ago when I watched George Biskup in his WC 911 get turned away from a Regional i was at because he didn't have a WC logbook, even though everyone knew he was running the car in WC. That to me highlighted the utter stupidity people are capable of. it may not be much, but in Area 5, that does not happen any more.

Second Bottom line, have fun, be safe and perhaps get involved in whatever sanction you run with and try to make a contribution.

Scott

[sequential]

Hello Scott
The statements made about what is disliked about the SCCA was not intended to be a personal attack to you or one working with SCCA at the regional level, but is directed at the powers to be at HQ.
I have many associates and friends involved in the SCCA ( customers too) and i voice the same deal to them. Being involved with motorsports at all levels, different continents , different sanctioning bodies etc , you see weakness's and strenghts in each and the SCCA is bogged down at the top. Do i see change? yes ! is it enough? No! Are they heading in the right direction ? Somewhat , but it is like watching paint dry .

On another note , Do you still race with Pca Scott and if so will you be at sebring next month?
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2

[Scott Sanda]

I didn't take them as such, and yes, paint sometimes dries faster in a humid local than SCCA effects change at a national level. It seems like for every step forward we then fall back 2.

I do, and I'll be at Sebring. I'm running my cup car, I haven't turned a wheel in the 924 since 2002. From 97 to 2002 there was a very active group of former D prod cars running in PCA. me, Joe Hish, Joe Nagle and a few others. Everyone has parked them or dropped away. I'm trying to get the car into GTL in SCCA, as it is less than a backmarker in GT3.

The car is for sale, sorta, but I'm not trying too hard.

I'll be under the Kelly moss tent, so look me up.

Scott

[sequential]

[Scott Sanda]

Well, If they can run 2.5L, find out if they can run 4 valves, cause that is the hot ticket.

If they are limited to say 2.2L, talk to Mike Mount out east, he has built a number of 2.2 924 motors, and they really go like stink.

See you in Sebring

Scott

[John Brown]

[Scott Sanda]

I'll second that, on the costs.

At one time I had 2 as identical as can be made 2.0 full prep 924 motors, and they cost roughly 20K each. The list starts at : custom cam, custom head, custome rods, custom piston, custom crank work. That's the easy stuff.

Ti valves and special springs to live at 8000 plus rpm, intake work out the wazzoo, all to get just north of 100hp/L

That's one of the reasons the car is parked. It is actually cheaper to run my cup car than it was to run the 924. Why? cause the 924 was VERY highly stressed, and the cup car isn't.

Way fun, and one day I'll dust it off again.

I got a ballpark quote the other day from Dave Finch to build me a "limited prep" 4 valve 944 motor to run in GT3, limited by an SIR to about 275-300 HP. Bought a house lately?

Stay as stock as possible unless the need for speed forces you to change, and then, you need to have the wallet to support it.

There are days I so miss my ITS 944.

Scott

[sequential]

Well i can believe the cost factor , i know what we have to spend to provide the results, that our customers demand. Of all the engines i have worked with a Honda is the least expensive, to make 125+/Liter. least expensive by a wide margin. Then BMW and then Porsche's (bmw is cheaper to pull, the porsche takes more money but delivers)

The modern motors actually need less to make big numbers than the old stuff, better head design stock out of the box helps. We have seen upwards of 210 hp out of B16, 1.6 L Honda's that spin to 9000 rpm all season long.
_________________
928 gts prototype
baby blue engine block
steam in 1,2,3,4 sometimes
cold star issues while on stands
112 whp with new 4 valve head and MIS 2