924Board.org

[por937]

Peter and Vaughan

Can we setup a new area called Rick versus gohim. This will provide the ideal arean for the rest of us to look at the Rick Maclaren versus the mythical (and anonymous) creature called gohim.
At least with Rick's comments I don't always agree with them, he has the has the guts to sign what I believe is his real name and where he comes from. As for gohim all we have is a aol.com address.

Maybe it's Rick slagging himself off?

[dwak]

Nope. That's Rick alright and Rick's not Gohim. Rick's an honest and sincere guy with with his own views on things.
Gohim? I wish he would say who he really is if he insists on such strong views. Gohim tell him on the mountain, over the seas and everywhere.........
dwak/Dan Wakelin/shithead/great guy....

[924RACR]

I know Rick, have met him, he's stopped by my place and hung out.

Gohim, whomever he is, appears to have much he might be able to contribute to the discussions here.

However, I don't have time for it. I'd rather race my car. As a matter of fact, I'll be doing that this weekend.

Consider it a deadline. Do whatever you have to, sort it out by Monday, and knock it off. If I come back from the weekend and find garbage littering my site, Peter and I will take action to keep the site working. We will reserve judgement until then.

Behave yourselves, don't give me a reason to get pissed off further!!! I don't put up with this kind of crap at work, and no-one's paying me here!!!

_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[JvGinPDX]

Seems to me that a lot of ego is on the line with the two of them. While each one may well have valuable information for us, their energy is better spent on helping all of us than in flame wars. Most of us just want to keep the cars running, or improving performance. I do recall reading a book about the WW2 B-17 4 engine bomber. The fuel mix was gasoline, tolulene, and a few other fuels. The 1200 horsepower engines were air cooled radials, and were turbocharged. If it worked for the government in the 1940s, it might work for us too, at least for racing purposes. I am just making an observation here, I do not claim expertice in this subject. I do not want to participate in flame wars. Good luck to all.

[marky522]

You tell them Vaughan!!!


Mark

[ This Message was edited by: marky522 on 2002-05-31 14:05 ]

[Rick MacLaren]

Ok, Vaughan, I hear you. I'll take a shot at it.

This thread is not about an argument. I raise my voice here about whether or not we want a community where an anonymous person can slam, deride, or defame a named participant's reputation. That's why I've raised a fuss. I think it's a worthwhile fuss. So the thread is about behavior, specifically, slamming reputation. It's not about tolulene.

History:

A week back Vaughan asked me to back off on critiques of your opinions. I did. In part this explains why I'm so pissed that you've taken pot shots from an anonymous corner again. But I'm trying to work it though, so please read. Despite my anger yesterday, I'm calm now and can speak about this matter with you.

Then, in yesterday's dialog, the problem re-occurred. In the 931 Discussion post, the original one from which these others are offshoots, your main and only concern was 'it eats rubber'. Man, if you'd just said that, we wouldn't be here. But in capital letters (using capital letters constitutes shouting in the internet world) you again chipped away at credibility: "BAD ADVICE!!!"

Later posts showed your argument switched from 'eating rubber' (implying people will ruin their cars), to 'the environment', and later 'health'. Some might think this switch, this duplicity, existed because it was more important to you to 'win' an argument, than to actually inform others. I dunno. I'm open to be wrong. Hopefully this isn't part of some long-standing grudge you have against me, that I am not aware of. If it is, for whatever I have done, I can apologise, and will, publicly, knowing what the deed is that has prompted these attacks. But I'll only apologise to a real identity, a real person's name, not an internet cloak, ok? Surely nothing I've done in the past is worth such animosity. That's the history as I understand it.

Solution

Now, if it's ok, I'll offer up what I think are reasonable things I would like to see:

1. Please use a real name. Or if you can't, then please identify your real name in your profile. To clarify: Other people here who are anonymous have also not been asked to clear up their identities. There are two reasons for this: First, some are just getting along, so there's no need to know who they are. Second, they don't hide their identities, and if asked, they will state their identity. This is critical.

You're new. I don't know you. If you cannot reveal your identity, well, why not? I can write to CBass, or Joe, or Diesel, or anyone here and learn their identity. Why won't you reveal yours? It's curious and you can clear that up so easily. Until you do people are not going to trust your intentions, especially if you're going after someone's reputation. Or if your remarks are injurous.

*** Will you get respect? I need to know, by knowing your name, that you invest as much in this site as I do, and that you're not here just to anonymously stir up trouble. Tell me your real name and you'll get my respect. If you find I've disrespected you in some way, it's because you didn't have a real identity. I will not mess with someone's reputation. If you give up your name, I'll apologise for things you think I've done. However, I can't, and won't, apologise to an internet identity. See * below. ***

*** Are you a straight shooter? If you reveal your name, you'll be speaking with the attitude that you've gotta 'be good', so to speak, because you can stand by your name and everyone here will know it. It'll also show you aren't here to antagonise, and that your attitude is one of trust and cooperation - cause you'll be putting your own real, good name up front, like a straight shooter, and not a back stabber. ***

2. Please do not yell by using capitals.

3. Please try not to use inflammatory language (i.e., terms like 'SPOUTING') to describe my position, or the position of others. It's inflammatory and demeans the person you are speaking to. There are numerous other ways to describe things and you are capable of using these other ways - you have the verbal ability to be articulate without being insulting. It can be construed as pushing a button, some might think deliberately, to harass. So please avoid doing that.

4. Most important: Please don't insert critical negative commentary on my credibility, or slam my reputation. That looks mean-spirited, even if you do not mean it to be so. Condsider that you have very little evidence on which to make a claim about my credibility. Consider too that it can affect numerous aspects of a person's life. Besmerching a reputation can affect whether or not a club will let a person participate in certain events, potential social gatherings of people here, or sales, partnerships and business dealings. It's not fair, so please do not do it. I have a reputation in my community, and this community, that I value.

5. An apology would help.

From today forward I'll follow each of these maxims that I've requested from you. So I'm not outlining a double standard, I'm offering a solution. But I need from you your identity to make our communications an equal playing field.

I've been here, using this site, for years, long before Vaughan became administrator. I tend to be fairly conservative, thrifty, and reliability oriented. Deviations from these stances I've taken, made mistakes, and learned from them. That's the attitude here: We all learn and no one person knows it all. And the learning and fxxking up is half of the fun, when it's not too expensive, that is. I wish this mess to stop.

On a point of rhetoric: When you say something is illegal, please do say where or under what circumstances something is illegal. Quite obviously Tolulene is not illegal in Canada - my Sherwin Williams paint store guy sells this stuff to hot rodders all the time. And other posters have questioned whether in Aus or NZ or the UK the substance is illegal. So it's not a cut and dried case. The product is sold in Sherwin Williams stores across my country, so obviously claims about illegality, shone in people's faces in bright capital letters, are unfair, perhaps restricting, influences on opinion and behavior. Same with health guidelines and other region-specific information.

* I'll take the hit for goodwill and for the team here and apologise to Gohim for whatever I've done that's earned his malice, but I won't apologise to an internet identity, or a made up name. That's too absurd to consider. It's a 'falsity', a 'duplicity' I can't deal with and won't consider. However, with a real identity, a real person, I can shake hands.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-06-01 00:30 ]

[Lizard]

ok rick you do realize that if you really wanted to know his name you are able to find it as you can find anything about anyone, get his ip address and then you can take ciontrol of his comp with sub7 or other program like it, plus rick dont waste your time just ignore

[Rick MacLaren]

Ok thanks Lizard. Well let's wait and see. If he's got as much integrity as he does car smarts then he won't have any problem identifying himself. If he really wants to be 'in' this community, he'll do so as a real person. Let's wait and see who we're dealing with first, sit and wait a while, and then if he disappoints, there are all kinds of other avenues and options. We might be pleasantly surprised.

[marky522]

kudos to you rick. Finally a chance for a cease fire.

Mark

[gohim]

rick

#1 I am not new, as I have written numbous times, I have been coming to this site longer than my more recent registration reveals. Your registration shows that you joined last August 2001, not years ago, as you just wrote. If you demend that I believe that you have been a member for years, then you must acknowledge the same for me.

#2 Insults. You are the one that started the name calling. You never bring any attention to the fact that you are in Canada, and the dollar amounts for the repairs that you have paid for may be in either US or Canadian dollars which are not the same.

You are the one that has been threatening to call your lawyer, and attack me in court. Why do you feel so threatened?

#3 Your poorly thought-out messages. You are the ohne who have thrown comments and statements that are untrue, and not documentable on this site. You have made comments which are untrue numerous times. You admit that you don;t do much/most of the maintenance on your car, yet you give people advice, when you have no experience in the matter. Examples: your references to replacing manual transmission filters when rebuilding snail transmissions, your reference to my not taking into consideration the cost on the gasket set for the same transmission, your reference to my butchering cars with a touch to install a transmission that the 924 was not designed for (5-speed audi transmission vs broken snail transmission) when the subject was four speed transmission conversion to fiuve speed transmission conversion.

#4 Your Reputation doesn't mean a thing to me, when you are delivering incorrect information about which you have no experience. For instance: your insistance that your 1980 931 came from Porsche with 177 hp, and weighs 600lbs less than a 944/924S, when the original questions was which engine is cheaper to maintain. I showed that you were wrong by delivering the information directly from the Owner's Manuals of my cars, and quotes from the Porsche Spec. Books, and you still don;t admit that you are wrong.

Yes, I see how you are protecting your reputation. On this message board you have solicited/offered for sale, to copy, and sell unauthorized, illegal copies of the Porsche Workshop Service Manual Set, and PET Cds, admitting that you were making a profit on copyrighted materials that you do not have any right to copy, distribute or sell.

You challenged me to a race to prove that your 931 is faster, and I accepted, even though I haven't raced in over 20 years. Then you back out with a lame excuse. What reputation is that?

#5 Your Apology, If anything, you owe me an apology for your attacks on this message board. You have posted multiple messages in different sections of this message board in an attempt to slur my reputation, and standings (which don;t bother me a bit, since we both know the truth about who knows, and who is the poser).

When I posted a message about a 944 chassis that I am/was giving away, no strings attached, you posted a message to warn people away from considering taking it. The fact of the matter is, I got what I needed from the car, and since it is in my way, I decided to give it away to someone who could use the parts, rater than have it hauled away and crushed yielding only a few dollars compared to what someone else would save by taking it. The fact of the matter is, since I decided to give the car away, I have sold over $500 worth of parts off of it, which someone could have gotten for free, if they had come to take the car away.

When someone posted that they were looking for a set of the rear side panels to restore their car, I offered the brand-new spare side panel that I was keeping for my 81 924, with the explanation that the current price was over $400 from Porsche, and asking for a reasonable offer for it. You jumped into the topic with a warning that I could be ripping people off, because I was not using my real name to post by, what with that? Why would I owe you an apology?

The only people that I owe an apology to are the people on this message board who have suffered the multiple posts that you have placed trying to embarass me, when you are the one embarassing yourself.

[Rick MacLaren]

Gohim, no one on the board registered before August 2001. If you review the log of historic posts, you can see me there from long ago. August 2001 was when the board changed hands and formats. Your research skills need some work...evidence:

From: Rick MacLaren
Email: rmaclaren@iprimus.ca
Date: 1/18/00
Time: 8:17:09 PM
Hi Mike, Please do send me the list of 924 race parts. I have a 1979 in need of speed. Thanks. Rick

Note, I also participated on the 924 board loooong before I ever even got a Primus account! Point made. Next point..

I did not offer that olive branch for you to re-hash old fights. I didn't call up all the misdeeds by you to me. Yet you feel it's necessary to bring other topics like this into the fray. However, sigh, each of your points I will handle in turn below.

First, I explained the tranny issue. The issue with the conversion of a transmission is perfectly reasonable: I stated I surveyed experts in the field, including Brad Wright from Ontario, my own mechanic friends who all know Porsche and others who all noted the cost of the conversion in time and labour was excessive. Moreover, I might add, further work, after said conversion, for an uninitiated consumer would result in a car that had a gearbox not intended for the car. Yes, buyers of potential 'fix upper' vehicles for concours DO care which transmission is 'right', even if you and others do not care. The 'gist' of the message was that it costs a lot of money to get a solid rebuilt snail shell. Your continuing to bring it up shows you just want to score points.

Second, your comments on my character are attacks I do not take lightly. That is why I voiced my concern to the board and the Webmaster. I did so because when you slam someone's real name, a real person's name, you're not communicating with an anonymous internet entity or handle, you are dealing with a real person. In contrast, I would argue, there's little moral obligation to deal with an internet 'handle' or pseudonym with quite the same care and foresight as you do with a non-pseudonym. I explained that in my last note under the discussion dealing with anonymity. As far as legal matters go, I'm here to try to rectify the situation before it gets to that stage. I was pissed my credibility was attacked yesterday when I brought up legal action, and I am sure you can understand why that might be so.

You said: "...your Reputation doesn't mean a thing to me, when you are delivering incorrect information about which you have no experience. For instance: your insistance that your 1980 931 came from Porsche with 177 hp, and weighs 600lbs less than a 944/924S, when the original questions was which engine is cheaper to maintain. I showed that you were wrong by delivering the information directly from the Owner's Manuals of my cars, and quotes from the Porsche Spec. Books, and you still don;t admit that you are wrong."

Well, Gohim, it is obvious that another persons reputation means nothing to you, but that proves my point about your anonymity ruining how you relate to people here on the board. You speak about books as if they are some 'authority'. Sheesh. I hope you noted that once the spec books were cited, I informed you that I made my claim based on 'observation' of cars on the street (i.e., I beat them all the time, particularly a red one here in town that got smoked by me a year or so back, before my rebuild). Observation gave me my information. What was I to say or do? Admit what? Sheesh. On the one hand, you want me to aquiesce to experience over books when it suits you (i.e., which tranny can cheaply belong in a particular car), and you want me to aquiesce to spec books over experience when it suits you (i.e., rated horsepower). You can't have it both ways.

Fact is, on the tranny issue, I still think rebuilding a snail is a far smarter option than trying to install the admittedly cheaper Audi box. For the 'average' person here, that option is ridiculous. Maybe for those of Herculian skill such as yourself this is a practical option, for most is just isn't.

Third, I owed you only an explanation of how I derived my conclusion, not to 'admit' anything. I ballparked and was wrong on the specked horsepowers of the vehicles. However, there's an important point you're missing. That being, I also stated that my estimates of HP were based on observation and that I 'reasoned' the fact that pollution controls on vehicles over 20 years in Ontario are not required, thus, I suggested, the average 931 turbo on the street IS faster than a 924S simply because they can run without these controls. Same with the 944. Frankly, that explanation, I thought, was sufficient. You should see a 931 go when it's got no smog stuff, they're really faster than a 924S, honest.

Fourth, regarding the dreaded race challenge...you said: "You challenged me to a race to prove that your 931 is faster, and I accepted, ... Then you back out with a lame excuse. What reputation is that?"

Now that is false, as there was no lame excuse, but simply put, your requirement that I race in California is totally unreasonable. In truth, I conceded to pressure from my friends here on the board who said it was immature to race, and I listened to them. I also noted it would be grossly unfair for me to travel to California to race you and that I would not travel to California, your home state, to do so. That is 'fair'. If you would like to race, please put forth a reasonable offer. It's easy to say:

"Sure, I'll race. Your 924S versus my 931. Let's race. Any time this month, in Kitchener, Ontario, against my 924 Turbo. You can soup up your car any way you wish, and I'll do the same. Let's go. However, it won't solve our little problem, will it?"

See how silly it is when you 'require' that we race in your home state? It's just as silly when I do it. And that's my point.

Back to the discussion...

Fourth, you said: "Insults" Again, Vaughan asked me to clear that up and I did so to his satisfaction and I left you alone. You express anger that I warned people away from you giving your 944 chassis to them? Look, Gohim, you and I both know that to make a 944 chassis into anything reasonable for the road, the person was looking at spending tens of thousands of dollars - and you didn't explain the costs of tow, keeping the car, or anything. You just wanted to dump it, as you explicitly said. You'd stripped it of valuables that you wanted and now it was time to dump the chassis. Thus, for parts, it was practically useless to the average 931 or 924 owner. And you might have sold parts, but I strongly suspect these parts went to a 944 owner or a junk yard or someone who didn't know what they were buying. I also explained that fully at the time. I've seen, to date, three 944's parted and stripped, and later sold to unsuspecting, well-meaning people who wanted a decent parts car. Observation taught me that, and experience watching others. All each person got was a junker in their garage, poor parts and lots of tow bills. I think I did our friends here a service. If the person wanted a decent parts car then they should buy one that hasn't already been stripped. And besides, if it was such a valuable prize, my words should've had little effect.

Fifth, you said: "You admit that you don;t do much/most of the maintenance on your car, yet you give people advice, when you have no experience in the matter."

Gohim you might be hitting on exactly and precisely where you and me differ: I don't care if someone is purported to be an expert or not. I really don't. The trick is, that I do not purport to 'be' an expert. I've been raised not to care too much 'who' is making an argument, and instead I try to find out what they're saying (i.e., what I've called the 'gist'). It's the 'gist' of a discussion that matters, not 'who' is 'expert'. And by the way, for the record, there are certain tasks of late I have not done myself:

1. engine rebuild on my car - too much time needed, and space. Money was available, so I used it.
2. wheel bearings - doing them was no sweat, but I didn't have the time and I needed my car for a weekend trip to see my gf. So I paid someone. Big deal.

Maybe a weld or two. But I don't have a welder here in Waterloo. My father's welding rig is 700 KMS away. However, there are numerous tasks I have done on my car that include:

1. dismantling the engine top to bottom
2. sourcing engine dip and treatment shops
3. machining my own intake
4. machining my throttle body
5. installing my own exhaust
6. tune ups
7. repair to the dreaded three hose pipe from the turbo
8. changing brakes
9. bleeding lines
10. changing fuel filter, pump, hoses
11. deinstalling the engine from my 931
12. wastegate repairs
13. more probably...just too tired to say.

That's about all I've had to do on my 931. On the 924 the list is about the same, but there I had to replace a rad, fan, interior top to bottom (swapped portions over to the 931 later).

Now why should I have to, for example, be an expert on buying stripped out, parted out 944's to make a comment to a prospective buyer about buying one? Isn't observation (two weeks with a car on blocks, trying to peel off parts of the carrion while he laments his purchase) enough? Do I have to stick my head in an electric fence to know it's a dumb thing to do? No. Do I have to know how to fix a fuel distribution unit when I know I can get one for $200? No. Freedom means choices. In 90% of the cases where my comments affected the products you were hocking, I just gave the reader a bit of freedom. That's not a bad thing to do.

Doesn't the wise person watch others and learn from their experience, rather than make the same mistake himself? Yes. Not always, but often. In this case I think it was wisdom to give options.

See, I don't learn like you. I don't have to 'do' it to know about it. And sometimes what I learn from research can even exceed what you can learn from doing. I also accept that you can know from doing things I cannot learn from research. Indeed, you know more about numerous aspects of the 924 product line than I do. Still, that isn't the issue for me, though it is, sadly, for you. Still, you don't know fuels (i.e., tolulene, where you say it's dangerous and illegal, and, in fact, can be bought in a local hardware store not 5 blocks from me) and it also exists in your fuel in your own cars - a fact you didn't admit to knowing! So you quite obviously don't know everything.

The point of this exercise is not who knows more. It's that I've been dishing out my advice and it's affected you once or twice. Your sales. I understand that. What can I say? Had you a real identity I might have off line messaged you to discuss each and every matter. But you've chosen to come here and sell stuff and operate with a pseudonym. Like, what can you expect? I think you've been given damned good treatment for a nameless internet entity hocking parts. I think once you start the Porsche Parts selling game, you're obliged to use your name so others can have recourse if your 'advice' turns out bad.

You know what? I'm not at all surprised at your lack of willingness to be civil, because you are holding that old grudge. My request was that I wanted you to be a straight shooter and lose the anonymity cloak because anonymity breeds irresponsibility. The offer still stands. Included in that is reconciliation, with the same requests as before. To a pseudonym, such an apology would have no meaning - it would be analogous to apologising to a cartoon character, or a character in a book - meaningless. To a real person, I am willing to work through most anything to both of our mutual satisfaction. Your choice.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-06-01 05:43 ]

[Lizard]

first off, what i dont understand is why gohim wont disclose his real name, it isnt that big of a deal, canadians are not like americans in the fact that we dont sue over anything or go and kill someone for something stupid, like an insult, next i dont understand why rick is so intent on getting his name, i mean i use a nickname as do alot of other people, but i dont care if anyone knows my real name as i am not trying to piss people off so they want to kill me, sorry i just dont have a death wish, i say you to just ignore each other or go and take it into a boxing ring and i dont give 2 shits who started it who is going to stop it as we are here to help each other and create friends not create life long enemies

[Jason-87924S]

Boys Boys Boys...

You are chasing people off of this board with your silly games. I have not visited this board in nearly 3 weeks because of you two. I'm sure I not the only person who feels this way. You guys are both in the wrong...just admit it and stop posting in each others posts! This is a Porsche discussion forum, not a pissing match.

With that said I hope that we can see an end to the squables. I would like to start coming back.

Sincerely,

Jason Chance

[Alex Roy]

Come on you guys......

Lets either solve this problem, or get some real mud slinging going on! I haven't even seen any good swear words or insults.

Gohim, Rick offered his apology, you slammed it back in his face, would your Mother be proud?

Rick, I have never thought less of you from all this.

I just think it is funny. I have never been on a message board where the "flaming" is this civil, there haven't even been any "yo mama's so stupid" jokes

anyway, our cars are supposed to be a release for all this energy, so everybody should take a good long drive this weekend on a windy back road (the ones my Dad always said "you take the speed limit and double it, then add your age").

_________________
Alex Roy
White 924 N/A, BAE turbo kit, Gemballa body kit, Haltech E6 engine management. A project in progress.

[ This Message was edited by: Alex Roy on 2002-06-01 02:29 ]

[924 turbo]