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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Finally found the pics of the All-Out Example for what you guys were asking 
Not mine BTW, but in theory I could do this. Wish I could give full credit too, but I have forgotten the source. At least I can let the art live on
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Back to reality
Put the Ported 931 head back on to set up for Intake testing. Tested Vane changes as well as injector behavior.
At least on this head, the injector costs -3 cfm. So I am thinking of machining new injector bungs to raise it up a bit.
I could get the vane to improve max cam lift flow but the overall area under curve was not as fat.
Updates to follow
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Today, I will take a baseline reading and install intake to see what happens
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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safe
Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 480
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:53 am Post subject: |
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I think the injector needs to protrude into the port.
But isn't the hole a lot larger than the injector? An insert (fill with epoxy) that makes the injector fit snugger in the port?
Edit: looked at the pictures in prev pages and I was wrong, its pretty snugg in there.
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/Magnus, Stockholm Sweden
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Porsche 924 -79 NA, EFI and Turbo.
Porsche 931 -79
Porsche 911 -77, 3.2 Targa
Porsche 911 -69, 3.6, Coupe |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| safe wrote: | I think the injector needs to protrude into the port.
But isn't the hole a lot larger than the injector? An insert (fill with epoxy) that makes the injector fit snugger in the port?
Edit: looked at the pictures in prev pages and I was wrong, its pretty snugg in there. |
I agree, I don't think it needs to protrude into port either. I think it should just be right at the opening so spray pattern is still normal. It was loose so I just kept screwing it up and down to see how it repeated
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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kondzi
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 420
Location: Poland/EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Side topic: Do you know what happens with flow when the seat is not cut deep enough? So it's slightly above the chamber surface. I expect best is completely flat and blended in?
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Konrad
'89 951 US
'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded) |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| kondzi wrote: | | Side topic: Do you know what happens with flow when the seat is not cut deep enough? So it's slightly above the chamber surface. I expect best is completely flat and blended in? |
I would think that matters more for the exhaust which is supposed to be slightly lower than the intake and blended in with a nice radius (Vizard points this out as well as others). The intake flow from the CFD pics I have seen, doesn't turn and come off the unfinished shrunk-in edge of the seat. Its coming off the last edge angle after the 45 in my case. I am just trying to blend the outer edge of my seat flat with the chamber.
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Its been a weird day. The intake matters and it matters in a way I would never have thought.
The vane may be tossed out the window after today.
I ran a baseline with vane
Installed intake with vane. Lower end flow gained a couple CFM but then it lost flow on top more dramatically, 14 cfm at max lift
Removed Intake and vane. Ran test again to baseline with no vane. Received numbers I am now used to seeing from previous sessions.
Installed intake (no vane) and lost a few cfm down low to mid lift up to .3 inches but stayed the same or gained few at top lift
Here is the mind blow
Almost essentially identical to Vane with Intake  
What an exercise. Vane is great on "ideal conditions paper" but...
The Intake matters
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2476
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting results, thats why i talked about having the intake on in earlier posts. with the angle the intake has it will make a difference in the flow angle and distribution. So maybe you have to make a new intake aswell  WHats the way forward from here?
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1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8712
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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curious what the NA head does with its intake...and maybe its TB as well as an option.
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https://www.the924.com |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Cedric wrote: | | Interesting results, that's why i talked about having the intake on in earlier posts. with the angle the intake has it will make a difference in the flow angle and distribution. So maybe you have to make a new intake as well What's the way forward from here? |
It is good you pushed for the intake test You made sure I took the time to lift the head on a new longer cylinder to fit the intake. With the intake at that angle I figured there would have been a turbulent area, similar to the vane in shape and location, that the flow would ride on. The hope was my vane would take its place and make it more efficient. It didn't. So again, its good you pushed me!
For this head, no new intake right now, only because this head is for the Club Sport with the TMIC. Not sure what I really could do with a setup like that. The idea was to put in a temporary engine while I sort a real build (re-build). Didn't realize it would take me this long but I like going down rabbit holes apparently. I have a used stock bottom end prepped but I don't know its history. Hopefully its decent enough to get me through the summer
Update for those who don't know: Something crazy happened to the original motor right before me. We never really nailed down what happened. So when I got it, she was limping on 3 cylinders. I knew that of course, so not a big deal. Always trying to figure out the "why". Seem to thrive on it except this case was a sad story
| Quote: | | curious what the NA head does with its intake...and maybe its TB as well as an option. |
This will be the Standard from now on for sure. In your case I would have to be a bit more detailed. The other intake ports would need to be closed if tested with throttle body. Need to pick up the upgraded throttle body as well. Once I get to the NA, I will start small and build from there. I am curious how a simple clean up performs
In all cases, the only velocity readings I think that matter would be closer to the valve. Taking readings near port inlet seem useless to me now if the intake changes things
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Cedric I never answered your question
Way forward: I think I will port a bit more on this head in the classic manner. No more strange stuff. See if I can get a bit more
Then get this back head together! There is much to be done. All the other ports, valves, etc
Might do a cam. Not sure yet
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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| Back to top |
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safe
Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 480
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, the failed vane, was that the baguette or am I confusing things?
_________________
/Magnus, Stockholm Sweden
=======================
Porsche 924 -79 NA, EFI and Turbo.
Porsche 931 -79
Porsche 911 -77, 3.2 Targa
Porsche 911 -69, 3.6, Coupe |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| safe wrote: | | Hmm, the failed vane, was that the baguette or am I confusing things? |
Yes, baguette is the same as the vane. It could be that the baguette/vane might work well with an Intake that is straight on the port. Parallel with it
It seems the stock intake has such a bend into the head port entrance that the flow gets directed in such a way that doesn't work well with the baguette/vane
We need straight trumpet style intake
Lets see what I can do with stock intake. Also thinking about making a intake test plate for the bench. What is the limit of the Intake ? hmmm
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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| Back to top |
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1562
Location: Chicago-ish
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:31 am Post subject: |
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More observations from yesterday. I tried smaller vanes near the short side radius. Sorry I had to try , still have that itch. I was switching between intake and no intake and forgot the clay around the port opening with no intake
The observation with no vane and no clay trumpet radius, made me realize you have to trust your porter and everything is relative
Without clay or vane it lost -3cfm at .3" / -14cfm at .4" / -22cfm at .5" and port was noisy.
No Vane with intake takes -3cfm from .1 inch list through .3 inch but causes gain all the way at the top .5 inch of 10-11cfm
This is that relationship between ideal, or perfect, port shape to the actual ported shape
You can tell the port likes the intake too, as I install and get close within 3mm the flow gets quiet
So with Intake on ported 931 head and no vane, I am at 171-172CFM at the top of lift
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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