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16v head swap? lets work it out!
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I missed the replies on here for some reason!

Mike - yes, all very valid and good points. I’ve played with the AC balance and it’s a tight margins between sufficient cleaning and not balling up the tungsten too much and loosing some of the arc control - in the confined space a wandering arc makes things much harder. The frequency I have set to 60hz which supposedly is better on thicker material. Tbh though, the material isn’t that thick - because of all the water galleries I have it set on 200amp but I’m only at half pedal most of the time. Too hot and it seems to drive out more impurities wit no benefit. Gas wise, pure argon I’m using. I looked into 50:50 mix with helium but I can get any at a sensible price because of bottle rent or purchase etc. I bought a bottle of Helium from Poland but they cancelled the order because of problems shipping post-Brexit!

I’ve now welded 5 of the 10 head bolt holes and it’s going really well. I only had a couple of hours in the garage and the pre-heat and setup took a little bit of time. These 5 have gone really well and the difference in contamination this time is night and day! The combination of having the head acid cleaned first, being meticulous with cleaning everything myself and using new stainless steel wire brushes which haven’t been abused on dirty stuff before has been the key. I’ve also made a new torch which helps me get in the tight spaces but still see the puddle. I’ve combined a #8 ceramic with a 100mm (4”) length of 9mm Pyrex glass tube with a 2mm wall thickness. This gives a tight 5mm bore and with a 2.4mm tungsten, there isn’t a lot of space for the gas to exit but at 12CFH and just short duty cycles welding for maybe 1min and then 20secs of post flow has, it’s staying cool enough not to melt or cause trouble.

For the cylinder head side the weld is very easy and the cast metal welds the same as normal billet tbh.
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I’d add some pics of the various stages during the prototype head build....
latest head is well under way. Few more hours welding to modify the oil and water galleries and it can go off for skimming ....

https://imgur.com/a/qQdItAv

Not used to imgur so if anyone knows how to post the pics so they appear here I’d be grateful to be told how, or be done for me!!
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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Juho  



Joined: 03 Oct 2018
Posts: 326
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this is really cool wish i had tools and skills to do something like that. Do you plan on turbocharging or going na with the engine. When do you think the engine is finished?


If you want to post the pictures directly here, in imgur right click the picture press open image in new tab. Once you have the new tab with only the picture copy that url and use the [img][/img]. When i take photos with my phone and post them here they are usually too high resolution and make the post look stupid because the resolution is so big so i scale them down in paint before posting.
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! There’s only about 15hrs of work left on this head. That’s finishing off the oil and water galleries. The head then needs skimming and CC’ing to determine the volume in the combustion chamber in the head. Once I know that, the block will go to the engine shop and have up to 3mm milled off the block to raise the CR to 8.5:1. Whist the machine shop are doing their work, I’ll be making the custom 4:1 exhaust manifold and log style inlet manifold. It’s going to receive a Eaton TVS1320 supercharger from a Lotus which is equivalent to an M80 in size. My current M90 is too large and too inefficient to give me the torque curve I want, but I hope the TVS will be more efficient and with the 16V head able to flow more, more appropriately sized too. Also needed are mounts for the alternator, and AC pump. I’ll be using an electric water pump for improved control.

I hope it will be finished and in the car this year, but that depends on how work goes!
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1219
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is super awesome. I have been welding a head, for other reasons, for a month now and your Hz level is ideal, thank you. We all appreciate your effort and proof of concept
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
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1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, pleased it’s been useful Mike. From what I’ve found on YouTube, the more you want to build up a surface by adding filler, the higher the frequency you want to use. Adding filler to a razor blade edge you want max hertz! This is the last step on this head, adding some filler to slightly reshape the head volume to give a little more safety for the HG to seal between cylinders, 0.5mm will do, so it’s worth the few minutes welding and grinding!
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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SpreadTheTed  



Joined: 18 May 2021
Posts: 22
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey what ever happened to this project? I know the engine ran on the duratec head but thats the last I saw of it
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi. Still steaming ahead! The engine running you saw was just a proof of concept using 924 pistons and had a compression of around 6:1!

I’ve since built up a new engine with Vw flat top pistons, 3mm skimmed off the block to bring the compression to 9:1.

This engine is now in the car and I’m just finishing off the custom stainless 4:1 header and coolant pipes etc. With limited time on the project I hope to start and test drive within the next 4 weeks. I’ll then put a few hundred shake down miles on it before I get it to the dyno and see how it performs!


_________________
UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8518
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was thinking about you and your project the other day, happy to hear you're still working on it.
Cant wait to see that 16V 924!

Euro924S2 wrote:
Hi. Still steaming ahead! The engine running you saw was just a proof of concept using 924 pistons and had a compression of around 6:1!

I’ve since built up a new engine with Vw flat top pistons, 3mm skimmed off the block to bring the compression to 9:1.

This engine is now in the car and I’m just finishing off the custom stainless 4:1 header and coolant pipes etc. With limited time on the project I hope to start and test drive within the next 4 weeks. I’ll then put a few hundred shake down miles on it before I get it to the dyno and see how it performs!


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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 210
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Morgen. I haven’t been providing many updates because all anyone really wants to know is whether it’s working or not! Once it is, I’ll post some progress pics. I hoped the assembly of the new engine would be quite quick given it was all built in prototype form already, but alas the 3mm off the block and 1mm off the head was enough to cause some interference issues with some of the ancillaries which whilst trivial, all took time to over come. A lot of time has gone into the new supercharger since the old eaton was too big and too inefficient, I hope this TVS will do better. But the snout was way too long, so I’ve made a custom snout housing ( based on an M45 like your kit - which looks awesome btw!) and shortened drive shaft etc but that needed softening first, then turning and new key way then hardening again.

For anyone wanting to see the built engine before it went into the car there are some pics on my Insta account: jrblackwell1

Will keep you posted once there’s reving noises!!
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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