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Supercharged 924 NA
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 373
Location: Rockford, IL

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However with all the prototyping and time spent on it, i'm still not happy on how easy it is to assemble it. I fixed a couple of major issues in regards to assembly and tolerances, but i have recently found a couple more.


My curiosity has the best of me -- what sort of issues have you found? Is it purely ease of access or mounting type of changes that are required at this point or are there functional changes in the air path or otherwise with the SC?
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8382
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacobroufa wrote:
Quote:
However with all the prototyping and time spent on it, i'm still not happy on how easy it is to assemble it. I fixed a couple of major issues in regards to assembly and tolerances, but i have recently found a couple more.


My curiosity has the best of me -- what sort of issues have you found? Is it purely ease of access or mounting type of changes that are required at this point or are there functional changes in the air path or otherwise with the SC?


Yeah, here is some stuff that i'm working on right now:

issue nr1:
For improved flow, reduced cost and simplicity, I placed one of the bolts that holds the supercharger outlet flange inside the charge tube, thats ok and it works fine but this means you have to pre-assemble the SC and its outlet on the table, in case you drop a washer into the charger you can just turn it around and get it out.
If you do this, the tolerances of the plate allow you to bolt and glue it (sealant) further backwards...and then you can run into the situation that you cant slide the silicone coupling over the SC outlet as the intake manifold is too close.


issue nr2:
Supercharger inlet is made out of two 3D printed and composite reinforced parts, one preassembled (glued and sealed) directly on the charger, the other one is assembled after the charger is in position in the car.
Space is very limited as you can imagine, and I have tried a few sealing options that would allow easy assembly and not too difficult disassembly if/when needed.
I tested various o-ring setups, o-ring and sealant, and the issue is the tolerances are too big to ensure an o-ring sealing between two rigid parts.
So now i'm changing to a more tolerance friendly solution, no o-ring, guiding surfaces and glue/ liquid sealing.


Issue nr3:
My prototype build used big hole diameters in the brackets for maximum adjustability of the position of the charger.
With the first CNC parts i tried to reduce the adjustability in order to provide a more consistent and easy assembly, however there are a couple of dimensions that need adjusting.
The charger's nose needs to go up 3mm and the whole charger needs to sit 1.4mm forwards after the nose has been moved.
Also there is one complication that comes from the fact that i want to design the kit to use the most common supercharger pulley size (65mm, my first build used the 56mm)...this gives me less space to work with, and less tolerance for belt misalignment...thats why the brackets need to be more precise.


The idea is that when you get this stuff, i dont want you to figure out how to overcome its problems, i want you to enjoy putting it together and then enjoy driving it.
I'm one guy, i have limited time and in order to fix as many of these issues...i have to build sets of parts and test them...this unfortunately takes me a dear amount of time.
Also, since i'm not doing stuff in series...i have to wait my turn as the CNC and composite guys need to make a living and even though i pay them decently, for them its peanuts compared to the big series jobs they usually do.
Once i have the recipe dialed in, its easy...i dont want to make it perfect, just enough that its consistent, works as intended and is decently easy to assemble.

I miss my 924, its so dusty now...maybe i'll take a few days off to focus on this project.
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Riggard  



Joined: 16 Feb 2021
Posts: 13
Location: Heemskerk, Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you're doing a thourough job figuring it all out. Very nice to see.

I was wondering, is there anything to mention about the price for the full set? e.g. a ballpark figure? (need to know how much I should start saving )
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8382
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I plan to offer a set of everything needed except the charger itself around 1000 euro + shipping, so you're likely to do this upgrade for well under 1.5k
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Riggard  



Joined: 16 Feb 2021
Posts: 13
Location: Heemskerk, Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds very reasonable. Especially for the (expected) hp gains vs. Money.

I'll put some money aside for a set
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Sndtech  



Joined: 23 Apr 2013
Posts: 52
Location: Commack, NY

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morghen , just amazing and so excited. Bravo and hats off to you. One of the best, helpful and kindest on this board. Can't wait to order it.. Thank you
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8382
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Manny, thanks for the kind words.

I made a lot of progress this week, i'm almost ready to start driving my car, just missing one fiber-glass part that is made with a mold and the mold guy is late..again.

Anyway, i began working on some videos to show the parts, how they should be assembled and for the interested people to understand what it means to do this to their 924.

These first two parts should guide you trough the supercharger preparation and fitting the charger into the engine bay.
There will be one more part with the airbox and one more with the plumbing and checks before starting the car.

part 1:
https://youtu.be/e_PhN4N2-aE

part 2:
https://youtu.be/4wiTktpjkQw
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2351
Location: MI

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite nice!
I watched your videos and the install seems plenty easy enough..

I would suggest, on your upper charge tube that mounts to the TB, to print in 2 bung locations with some meat on them that can optionally be drilled and tapped for an intake air temp sensor/manifold absolute temp sensor, and another to install a meth injection nozzle..

I think an updated part with these could be done later though if anyone wanted them..

Very cool..
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8382
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way cool idea!
I printed one thicker area to bolt a nipple for the idle valve but now that you mentioned IAT and nozzle, i have to think about how to sort that out in a smart way.
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 373
Location: Rockford, IL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent videos Ciprian and thank you so much for being so diligent on this project! It's very exciting to know that you care so much about quality and support.

I would also be very interested in a part with those ports as mentioned for IAT and meth injection. Even if this does not happen in the first round, I would be happy to buy an alternate part to replace for an upgrade.

Very excited for this soon!! I bet it feels good to drive your 924 again.

I am wondering how your updated kit compares to the original one which you stress tested for so long? Is there any drivability difference or have all your modifications been made to the original also?

You mention in one of the videos how the charger from the "Works edition" car will not work because of the smaller pulley diameter -- is this something that can be an option in the future to build more boost (for example if meth injection is available) or is your concept fairly static?
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2351
Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacobroufa wrote:

You mention in one of the videos how the charger from the "Works edition" car will not work because of the smaller pulley diameter -- is this something that can be an option in the future to build more boost (for example if meth injection is available) or is your concept fairly static?


He he he

Even if one was to run out of fuel with the stock fuel system, spray enough meth and it’ll bring your AFR down to where you want it..
Maybe even mix some E85 with your windshield washer fluid to use it even more as a “5th injector” just to add more fuel if needed??

I think their are possibilities, but I need to keep from theorizing too far ahead yet as this baby bird is just starting to take flight in the first place..

I was even thinking about how this could be plumbed onto a 931 to twincharge..
Would be super easier with EFI because plumbing it all back to the CIS AFM would be difficult if not impossible..
But with EFI I think this kit could also relatively easily be used to twincharge a 931..
Different supercharger plumbing but the pulleys and mounting morgen has came up with here would work..

https://youtu.be/4birhPB5Twk


Oooohhh no...
Could it be made to fit?
Must stop..
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 373
Location: Rockford, IL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YESSSSSS
Eddie you are nuts man, this is a great idea though.

I'm hoping for gradual improvement via frankenCIS in the Weissach, but only after I have the SC. Enjoy it stock for a bit, as it's been designed.

Then get the eWUR and some sensors and a MS.. I might do ignition at the same time -- I have been getting a cut out similar to what I experienced last year but much more sporadic.. I know my grounds are good and so I can only blame it on an ignition system that's on the fritz.. I am thinking about the 123ignition distributor, which is what Mittelmotor uses as their base I believe but I want to check compatibility with MS..
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jacobroufa wrote:
YESSSSSS
Eddie you are nuts man, this is a great idea though.

I'm hoping for gradual improvement via frankenCIS in the Weissach, but only after I have the SC. Enjoy it stock for a bit, as it's been designed.

Then get the eWUR and some sensors and a MS.. I might do ignition at the same time -- I have been getting a cut out similar to what I experienced last year but much more sporadic.. I know my grounds are good and so I can only blame it on an ignition system that's on the fritz.. I am thinking about the 123ignition distributor, which is what Mittelmotor uses as their base I believe but I want to check compatibility with MS..


If you want to play with FrankenCIS, and you have lambda/frequency valve, then I’d probably skip the whole e-WUR part.. Cheaper..

And, if you use a microsquirt, it will do your ignition too, and don’t have to mess with the mittelmotor distributor thing..
The MS will do that too many different ways, my favorite probably being LS coils..

Sorry morghen

Your SC is awesome and inspiring..
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8382
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is most rewarding to see people pick up your ideas or work and improve them or build them further or adapt them to something else.
Its the only way real progress is made, bouncing ideas like this.
I would like this supercharger kit to be about the 924 and the people who love and enjoy these cars.
I had thoughts about a 931 application as well, may look into it later on as it could turn out into something pretty crazy with a big turbo to do the high end rpm work.
As for a place to plumb sensors and stuff, yeah i’m thinking about whats the best way for the processes and materials involved in this project.
The idea i'm toying with is to flatten an area on one of the charge pipes so that i can glue and bolt a thick, removable Aluminium plate there that people can drill and thread as they need and want.
The very first upgrade however will be a bolt on intercooler setup with only one part replaced from the current kit.

In regards to what is different on this kit compared to the prototype i used last year.
The concept is identical, some improvements to the brackets, some production and process improvements here and there.
Sealing between parts is more simple and hopefully better...also the 3D printed parts routing is optimized, the parts themselves are optimized for printing, assembly, flow and hopefully strength
The most important aspect is the use of the external blow off valve driven by boost rather than by vacuum. This allows for better fueling and less stress on the 3d printed parts.
Also, by using the bov this way results in a smoother driving experience compared to using no bov...and a cool noise from time to time
Another thing i want to try is to not reinforce the inlet parts at all, just thick coat them in epoxy. This should allow for a bit faster production if its proven that the reinforcement is not necessary for the inlet parts.
The main reason for reinforcing those was to overcome the printing inconsistencies i saw last year, but i changed materials and tooling and that aspect improved to what i think is sufficient to not wrap the supercharger inlet in any fibers.

My first charger was a JCW charger, its exactly the same thing with the normal charger, it just has a smaller pulley for more boost.
I was planning to run more boost on my car but i want to try to intercool it first and see the difference.
If it is a situation similar to the 931 where simply adding an intercooler frees up more power then the current boost levels may be enough.

My goal is to find the simplest and most robust thing for the most amount of fun...not the most amount of power.
I am reluctant to running more boost for several reasons...and i will list them here:
-NA CIS may not be able to keep up without additional mods.
-3D printed parts may not live that long with extra heat and extra pressure..or they may not even work at all...requiring more expensive materials perhaps.
-924 NA engines are 9.3:1 CR and most people will just strap the charger on to an old NA headgasket and that may result in more 924s being killed and parted...the main idea behind this kit is to make the 924 relevant again in terms of fun and every day driving experience.
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 1161
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morghen, its interesting to see how this project has crossed from individual hot-rodder project to serious production for the masses. I really think the hardest part of completing anything is the last 5-10%. This is the part that kills me most times. The refinement of production processes, combined with your 3 points centered on reliability for all, is truly inspirational. You are handling this like a pro!
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