924Board.org

[jamie924]

hi
im hoping to grab some hints and tips on mainly susapension but also a few engine ideas for my racer ,im not worried about class regs as i would just prefer to have the perfect 924 track car and race it in open classes and enjoy it rather than be restricted on my fun. I have a pair of locost sevens to abuse to so its more to enjoy the perfectly ballanced 924 experiance
ok so here are my ideas all critasism greatfully recieved and any ideas or experiance would b greatly valued
right front to rear
the car is 4 stud usefull for wheels saxo and pug 106 fit but rubbish for brakes etc also has the anti roll bar bolted to the front arm im hoping the 944 s2 kit front arms arb legs hubs will all fit i intend to use a heavy front arb as i like to rear wheel steer quite a bit but not to stiff andy sugestions also ground controll 3 way camber tp mounts and coil over conv with 2" springs again im not sure of the weights again any sugestions and as we have an account with hi spec brakes i will probably go for there new bilit 6 pots with ss hoses ans hopefully a 3 cyl bias peddle box i have never seen 1 in a 924 so any pics or info would be great i will also need to convert the clutch to hydraulic im g as yet its not appart but i no they did both and to finish on the front i was going down the rout of solid aloy bushes with spherical bearings in them
ok the engine is decided im an ex bmw tech so i have a room full of eaton m62 chargers from the cooper s so na bottom end lightened ballanced on hd bearings i cant find a high pressure oil pump but im sure the std 1 will cope with a electric boster or i may go electric depending on price with a cooler and auto accusump for run down and start up shot peened rods for extra strength and mahle pistons possibly machined compression and cam issues i would dearly love a better flowing turbo hed if anyone has one for sale at reasonable price as they seem to be silly money and i read that enough metal can be removed to flow the same as a stage 3 turbo head mind you stage 3 is a prity meaningless benchmark once the head is sorted i will then be able to fit slightly larger stainless valves and bolt it all back together i intend to fuel it using gsxr1000k5 throttle bodies and mega squirt i know throttle bodies arnt really nessacary on boosted engines but it should improve response and they were free the whole lot will be on an 8 injector megasquirt set up on 2 of the standard pump s as they are nice and cheep my main two engine worries are the exhaust manifold i have seen plenty of left hand drive tubular manifolds but no right hand drive ones does any one make them any photos or suppliers of them also i know of 2 cam manafacturers piper and cat cams but they only do mild profiles 285 degrees the engines i usually build have a range of cams available and i would really like a 300 or 310 profile
ok body and interior are all fine less is more appart from a cage and fuel cell
To the rear of the car this is where is gets complicated i have seen a company who produce a rear beem for the 944 in aloy which would be perfect if it wasnt 6 or 7 grand usd but it looks easy enough with some box section and some rose joints and thick sheet does any one use a similar setup or have one of the alloy ones i thin it was a summit part or maybe im off into uncharted teritory basically i think it will give me a huge weight loss as well as huge adjustment over setback castor and camber of the rear and of corse the ability to run coilovers and with that the final thing is rear anti roll bars i dont currently have 1 but im still wondering about sizes and makes i have heard good resorts on the weltermiester bars but there are a few on the market

so there it is any advice critasim greatly recieved as i know there is a huge ammount of knowedge on the forum also over on the for sale side all the bits im stripping will appear i dont want any mony for any of it appart from the new parts i have rear 4 stud drums and front discs brand new shoes h brake cables good dash with couple of tiny cracks and reconditioned front calipers for the 80 924 the rest is free take it away i need the space

thanks for taking the time to read my babble

[moliver]

Is there a Cliff Notes version?
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87-924s

[Rasta Monsta]

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Toofah King Bad

• WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

[leadfoot]

dude, punctuation...!! that's hard to read...
What are your HP goals ??
Clutch, gearbox and driveline haven't been addressed... and will need to be.
Brakes will need to be changed, you can use turbo 5 stud or 928 brakes as on the sports "S" model...
Your spending all this money and your going for the cheapest ecu possible... why no go motec,haltec...
Use the turbo head to start with, you will need to make sure any cam grind you get is hardened in some way or it will be eaten away.
I'm assuming your running blow through throttles, why not just appropriately size 4 injectors.
As for fuel, if your worried about running out you can always run both feed the a single rail with two returns.
Suspension and pedal boxes not my thing...
You might consider a larger twinscrew blower rather than overdriving an M60 and also think about intercooling...
so much. You might also think about a stroker kit when you get your pistons.
Leadfoot
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1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress...

[John Brown]

[endwrench]

I wont comment on your grammer as I know mine can also be difficult to read.

Sounds pretty ambitious. Unless you have a whole mountain of money to throw at this thing I would first suggest selling all your NA cars and just go buy a 931 to start with. You will then have the proper brakes, suspension, cylinder head, clutch and drivetrain. Your gonna end up changing all this anyway if you go supercharged.

Like John said, don't go away, just slow down

Todd
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'79 924NA. Rebuilt 9.5:1, MSDS header, Mega Squirt Injection, MJLJ-EDIS Ignition, 1.6L Whipple Charger and Intercooler, 10lbs Boost, 944 Trans, Custom HD Clutch.
"simsport" said....superchargers are better than turbos its official!....

[924RACR]

I'll admit, I only scanned you post - like they said, too hard to read all that detail. But I think I got the gist, and here's my reply:

I think you're planning to throw a lot of money at an unsuitable target. The balance is not the essence of the 924 experience; inexpensive, reliable highly-rewarding competitive driving is the essence. Your plan misses most of that. If this is your desire, you'd be better off trading up for a car that comes with most of your targeted equipment - like a 951.

If you have a 924 and want to race it, you need to target inexpensive, reliable, not necessarily race-winning, but competitive racing. That's really it.

Your location and planned race sanctioning body would also help us provide direction.
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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Chrenan]

I think Vaughn summed it up pretty well.

I'm a little confused in that you say in the topic that you are building a 924 race car, but then you say:

[jamie924]

HI
Thanks for all the replies im sorry for the grammer errors spelling was never my strong point and it was late when i wrote it .
to clear up a couple of points

no 1 i have a mint unwelded 924 shell and i love the handeling and shape of the carrera gt

no 2 i dont have loads of money im building it more as a demo car for my tuning company so its not as expensive as it sounds ,6 pot calipers cost me £52 gbp each once i claim the tax back and most of it i will fabricate myself ,as we have cnc laser cutters and the usual mill lathe tig mig and oxy kit.

no 3 right the brakes im restricted as i want to run 16 by 8j fronts and 16 by 10 j rear wheels so probably 330-360mm on ali bells with 6 pots up front and 240-250mm on 4 pots at the rear.

no 4 im using the megasquirt 1 version 3 as it is far more advanced than any offerings form motech omex emerald etc with all the add ons it has many more load sites better software nitrous controll switichable maps incidentally the only ecu on the market to my knoweledge dave walker is developing 1 with switchable maps over at emerald funnily enough on a 931 but its not on sale for a year just because its cheep it doesnt mean its rubbish

no 5 i dont want a 931 or a 944 i dont like the look or the 6 cyl engine and i will never find such a clean 931 shell also i dont want a turbo bin there done that supercharging offers no lag performance what more could you ask for

no 6 im not worried about class because im going to be using it for historic hillclimbs sprints and track days rather than serious competition why make it so fast and spend the money well cause ive had her for 4 years and ive fallen in love with the old girl you no how it is

ok engine wise im not expecting miricals,220 bhp would be perfect on 10psi of boost im not heavy on drivetrain the box is on the bench having new bearings and syncros as and when i have time. I will see how it goes i dont like the dog leg boxes so see what happens. Clutch im hoping to source a 4 paddle organic plate or i will modify a basket up to fit if i have to many problems.

now you all think im mad

really what i was after was advise on anti roll bar sizes and makes same with bushes (solid items) supliers for right hand drive manifolds if anyone knows any and lastly coil over spring weights with no rear tortion bar and im slightly dubious as to the sbefore i go out buying them

hope this was easier to read

[morghen]

1.Did you ever drive a 924 carrera GT.. ?
2.it must be realy realy late in england right now because there is no such thing as a 944 with 6 cyls. Nice for you to have laser cutters and CNCs and stuff. Good luck with the tuning company and stuff. I also wish you good luck with the 924 project.
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Supercharger and EFI kits
https://www.the924.com

[fiat22turbo]

Sounds good. Escept none of them came with a 6-cylinder. The 944 had a 4-cylinder (a much better one at that) The 928 had an 8-cylinder (that was essentially two 944 motors) Only the 911-series cars had 6-cylinder motors and they are not related to the 924/944/931/928/951/968 cars.

Personally, I would suggest finding a wrecked 944 and swap all of the better suspension, brakes and drivetrain parts onto your 924 then sell what is left to a 944 nut who needs 944 specific parts. and you'll be much further down the road and you might come out ahead since people don't always have time to do the dismantling of a parts car.

I wish I had time and room to do this, instead I have to rebuild my Carrera GT knock off bit by bit and its annoying because I now have 944 rear control arms without e-brake or hydraulic brake lines and I'm not sure anymore what year my brake parts are so I have to sort that out before ordering parts, etc. See where I'm going here?

Sway bars, springs and shocks kind of depend on your driving style. Many people like their cars teeth rattling stiff, others like them a little more soft to maximize lateral grip while sacrificing transitional speed.

From what I glean in reading this forum over the last few months is that a 21 or 23mm front bar with a 19mm rear bar will make for a decent starting point. Look at 944 suspension solutions for ideas. Adjustable bars make it easier to tune for different track or environments quickly. Making them remotely adjustable makes for the icing on the cake for a driver to adjust while enroute to deal with changing tire and track conditions.

Adjustable struts with integrated adjustable spring perches are readily available as they are the same as early 944 pieces. The caution here is to not confuse yourself with too much adjustment if you don't understand what they all do. Triple adjustable struts sounds great, but what do the adjustments actually do?

I'm looking into using a Quaife steering rack kit for a MK1 Rabbit to quicken the steering ratio on my 924. Quaife hasn't answered my e-mail yet. You might be more easily able to call them as you're on their side of the pond.

Strut mounts and braces are pretty interchangeable with other 944's. As are control arms and bushings. Be careful not to lower the car too much or you'll need to correct the suspension geometry as you can break balljoints.

If you don't mind a little work I actually discovered last night that the intake manifold from my girlfriend's old Ford Escort GT (1.9L High Output CVH motor) would fit on the 924 motor if I built a small adapter plate (or machined the head to accept the Ford bolt pattern) and portmatched the intake and head.

It could be flipped upside down so you couldn't see anything except the bottom of the runners, its a 2-piece design so it would be easier to port and it would provide another set of injector ports. I know the later Escort's used a dual path intake setup but I don't have one on hand to look at. The best part for you and I would be the throttle body is slightly larger and pointed in a better direction for force induction usage and since its a 2-piece design you could build a new plenum pretty easily if you need more volume.

Good luck,
Stefan

[924RACR]

OK, this helps a lot - in particular to know that you're on the other side of the pond, that does change the picture substantially!!!

It also means that your plan starts to make a little more sense, with the added detail as well.

6-pot calipers seems like overkill, to me. Some great options simply by swapping in 951S/928S4 units, or yes, aftermarket - Wilwood is popular over here, I have a conversion kit complete sitting on my shelves for my 931 project car. 8x16 and 10x16 sounds about right; that would allow you to fit the 951S brakes (4-pot monoblocs - big black calipers). Any bigger than 8" on the front will get real unfriendly with manual steering.

Regarding ARBs (anti-roll bars aka swaybars) - I highly recommend the rear 19mm adjustable factory Cup Car bar - excellent product, great pricing, works well with many stock front bars. If you're going to be uprating the springs, you don't need (or want) too much heavy-duty ARBs, they have negative impact, if overdone, for serious (track use) cornering. I'm definitely of the more spring/less bar school. Inside wheel lift does not help you get around the corner faster, especially when it's on your drive axle and you've got an open diff!!!

There's an excellent thread in the rennlist racing forum (under the heading of 944/968 wheel lift during cornering) that gets to the subject of spring rates and balance. Check it out if you have a chance - should give some great ideas of spring rates to be used (for good balance).

Also, Paragon Products - my main supplier for suspension goodies - used to have an excellent website for reviewing spring rates and wheel rates... can't seem to find it any more. IIRC (check the rennlist discussion mentioned above) the wheel rate for the rear coilovers is .65, and the front springs is .85 - meaning if you had a 100#/in spring at each end, you'd have, effectively, a wheel spring rate of 65#/in on the rear, 85#/in and the front. I'm operating at a 1-1 ratio (between front and rear), but check the thread, others use different values...

As for that Kokeln rear beam suspension - looks awesome, just spendy. Their products seem to be of high quality, so if you can afford it, why not! Just make sure you reinforce the upper shock mounts - ideally, tie them into the cage - to take the loads (not designed for that). In my case, I don't use that as I am restricted to use of torsion bars only, not even helper coilovers are allowed. Heavier, sure, but low CG and still very effective. Just a massive PITA to adjust!
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Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[ideola]

Here's a good link that might at least give you some ideas on tuning the 931. Not a lot of details, but maybe enough to stimulate your thinking:
http://www.356-911.com/post1974/moderntuning/porsche924turbo.htm
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erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made

[bass gt]

Stefan,

Regarding the Quaife rack, don't bother. They will not make a custom unit. I live 10 miles away from their Sevenoaks factory and went through this with them for weeks. minimum order of 50 units, both LHD & RHD. What i did was buy the rabbit quick rack from them, as this is a straight swap, and contracted a local engineering company to make the pinion gear.Quaife even provided the drawings of the Rabbit pinion so they could machine the correct gear and helix pitch. They then treated the pinion to the Quaife specs. Not easy and not cheap. And you cannot use the Quaife rabbit pinion as it is much shorter than the 931 item, so will not work, without lengthening the intermediate shaft, and working out how to modify the crossmember to allow the lower knuckle to sit so deep. However, i now have a steering ratio of 2.6:1 which is much better than the stock 4:1. BUT, the steering is very heavy, which is to be expected.
If you want more info, search for my posts re 924 quick rack.
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Front Wheel Drive is the Devil's work.