924Board.org

[Peter]

Just wanted to post some of my observations about running a stock 924 Euro in PCA Driver's Education events.
This weekend I spent two days at Lime Rock Raceway in Connecticut. (http://www.limerock.com/). I will also be there on March 29-30, if anyone wants to come by and talk cars. Lime Rock, to those not familiar with it, is probably the best track in the North East for a low powered vehicle. The specs of the track are on the site, but briefly it's 1.35 miles with S-turns, a short straight, a blind right-hand uphill, a steep downhill with right hand turn, a long straight, and turns thrown in here and there.
Although I am not a novice to Lime Rock, I was running in Green (beginner's run group) even though I am in the Yellow group as there were no spaces in the Yellow group. Other cars in the Green group included two 2002 911 twin turbos, a 914-6, and numerous 944Ts, boxsters, 930s, a 928GTS, and new 911s (don't remember if they are 996s or 999 or whatever they are now called). Although I had the slowest car, I had the most skill and experience in the Green run group (obviously as I was signed off for the Yellow run group). However, driving a 924, one gets no respect, regardless of your level of experience. It was only after being behind a faster car for two laps would they LET me pass them. Passing is allowed only after the car in front gives the car in back the passing signal. If no signal then no pass regardless if you are behind them for lap after lap. Of course, in the straights, they would just blow past me.
I can go into great detail about the poor driving skill of some of the drivers, but this is the beginner's group and everyone is here to learn and improve their skills. What I want to talk about is the technology of these newer cars compared to my stock 924 Euro. There is no comparison! The Power Management Systems that modulate brakes and throttle when wheel slip is detected, the massive amount of power theses cars have, power steering, power clutch, ABS, etc, etc, nearly guarantee that regardless of the driver's skill level he/she will easily beat a 924.
For example, the right-handed turn leading to the blind uphill, I regularly crest the top of the hill at 80-90 mph in 4th gear. Well my fellow drivers (novices and scared of the blind hill) would slow down to about 45mph, turn right, climb the hill then hit the gas and be gone. When I was behind them, I would have to brake hard in order not to crash into them, then downshift into 3rd or even 2nd and putt, putt my way up the hill. Of course, by then, they are way ahead of me. I have numerous examples. Needless to say, the 924 is a momentum car. Once its momentum is cut off, it is dead in the water. Since I was running with drivers who are new to track events and constantly slow down to much, I had no momentum and went home unsatisfied. It is very frustrating driving a 924 against cars that are so much advanced, which probably explains why people don't buy used 924s and run them at track events
What can be done to be more competitive with the cars on the track?
(a) Buy a 944T.
(b) Modify the hell out of your car.
Because this is the 924 board, option "b" will be discussed here briefly.
(1) First, do a tune-up and make sure the engine is working properly.
(2) Do a 5-bolt conversion. I run drum brakes in the rear and I always thought that they were more than adequate and even told a friend not to do a 5-bolt conversion. I was wrong. A 5 bolt conversion not only increase brake performance, but also performance of the car as a whole --bigger, wider tires make a more stable platform, performance brake disks as compared to the "parking brake" shoes sold for 924 drum brakes, no need to regularly adjust the drums with risk that one drum is tighter than the other throwing of your braking, etc.
(3) Suspension -higher rate springs, shocks, sway bars. This will not guarantee that you pass other cars in the turns, but will help to allow you to stay with them in the turns. Remember that some 924s do not even have a rear sway bar.
(4) More power from the engine. Higher compression pistons and a cam work. However, you cannot hope to equal the power of current Porsches. It may be best to do the math and calculate what it would cost to rebuild a 924 engine and if money is better spent being put aside for a newer model of Porsche.
These are some of my thoughts and observations. Driving on the track is 100% different from street racing or speeding on the highway, neither of which I advocate. It would be nice if 924/931 owners could get together and have a track day where we all drive similar cars and compare how well we drive rather than how well are cars drive us. 924 racing is popular in Europe, unfortunately 924s have been neglected here in the States.
I am currently working on building a 931-track car so that at least I can be on a semi-equal playing field with the newer Porsches on the track. Although it gets frustrating, I encourage everyone with a 924 to become a member of PCA and attend DE events. It is the best and safest venue to practice your driving skill.

-Peter A. Holiat

[dwak]

Makes sense to me.
dwak

[Zuffen]

Peter

How did you get stuck in green? Just you or where there many others?

_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[Peter]

In PCA DE, the run groups are Green, Yellow, White, Black and Red (from beginner to advanced). I got promoted from Green to Yellow after my first run (4 runs a day, with 2 days at the track), but because there were no spots in Yellow I had to stay in Green.
There were about 20 cars in each of the run groups. Lime Rock is a great track and gets sold out very fast. Being in Green is not bad as long as drivers' of faster cars show courtesy to better drivers in slower cars by letting them pass.
The point of my rambling was that (1) unless you are a professional driver driving a 924, even beginner drivers in better cars will always be faster, and (2) a 924 cannot compete with newer Porsches. Sorry. I like my 924. I think it is the closet to a true bare bones sports car there is --manual steering, manual clutch, no abs, etc, etc. However, unless everyone else is driving a similar car, you can hit every apex correctly, make the smoothest transition from throttle to brake and back, and never miss a shift, and you will still be last. How can a 924 compete against 944Ts, 911TT, 928GTS, etc, etc?
I am sorry, but driving a 924 against anything other than a 356, 912 or 914 is just frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I love the 924/931 series, because they are fun to drive and even more fun to rebuild.
-Peter a. Holiat (nomex on)

[Zuffen]

well that seems very unfair. they should at least trade out the slowest 5 or so cars in yellow to let those yellow guys stuck in green have a chance to better positon themselves. just maybe you could have gotten up a little higher in the timing rank.

you were making more than one run right?

Who was your scrutineer out there?

_________________
Bob Dodd - 924turbo@cox.net
931 1982, 944 1982 euro, 924S 1988SE, 93 968 tip 06 Silver Cayenne S, 06 Black Cayenne S

I have Way too many cars, parts for the 931,944 and 951

[924RACR]

Consider also, a major problem specific to the DE environment is not being able to pass anyone on the turns. I'm sure you'd be having a lot more fun if you were allowed to. Of course, then you'd be wheel-to-wheel racing!

_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Peter]

Just completed 3 days at Lime Rock Race Track in Connecticut. The 924 held up great. After I got my tire pressures worked out, no more sliding, with only one 360 spin.
Below I have attached a pic of me in my 1984 Euro 924. Except for an external oil cooler, I run a stock car, stock seat belts and a full interior. The pic shows me executing a right hand increasing radius turn. I am traveling at 80+ mph in 4th gear. As you can see, all the weight of the car is on the outer side (driver's side). The car wants to go out and I am fighting hard to keep it in toward the center of the turn. It is important that you do not let up on the throttle in the turn as you risk spinning if you do.
Driving a 924 fast on the track is hard. It is one of the best feelings in the world when instructors and other drivers come up to me and complement me on my driving. Even though I run the slowest car in my group, I have some of the fastest lap times. I recommend that all 924 owners spend the $40 to become a PCA member and then sign up for a Driver's Education (DE) track event. DE's run about $100 a day in the Northeast with about 1 & 1/2 hours of actual track time. Some of the best money you can spend on your car is to get track time. And don't be afraid of hurting your car, you won't.
Later I will post a pic of a 911 who passed me, the only car to pass me during that event, and what happened to his car.
-Peter A. Holiat

[numbers]

Hey Peter, it looks pretty flat, not the excessive lean that a stock sprung American car of that vintage would have.

[Vince Ponz]

Peter did well that day. DE days beat street racing. We are humbled by how slow our cars really are. On the track you run with all cars, boxsters, turbos, 914s with 3.2s, Carreras etc. If you can keep up with them fine if not let them go.
On the street it is illegal and dangerous. On the track during DE days if you spin twice you go home, do stupid things you go home, have an incident no driving for 13 months. The latter has a tendency to make us respect the others.
Does racing go on during the event you bet it does.
What makes you come to your senses is spinning at speed. The pucker factor, right. Once you get involved with tracking your car you will not street race again.
I like hearing from you all so play safe.

[924RACR]

This is so true... the most scared I've ever been driving on the street, since I started driving at 16 (and remember, I'm a professional driver here), was after going through (race) driving school, spending 2 days on track in close proximity to other aware and motivated racers, then having to get in the car and drive home on the street. I was scared stiff, havign to share the road with unpredictable idiots who had no idea what they were doing and no awareness of their surroundings.

It took me months to get over

_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[Vince Ponz]

It is funny you mention that after driving at school you were scared to drive home.

I went to a 3 day Skip Barber school and after the first day driving home the 90 miles on the Long Island Expressway I was really terrified of the other drivers. This never happened to me before. Strange sensation. My awareness was heightened.

Formula Fords do handle well. Had a couple of spins. One at about 90 on a decreasing left turn. Stayed on the track after two 360s. Took 3 hours to take the shorts out.

I never mentioned it before but now feel better that you said it. Okay, Camen [wife] cancel the doctors appointment.

[tmb-racing]

Vaughn-where are you racing that you get paid? I have been club racing since 95 but we do not get paid-(therefore we are not professional drivers).I want to get paid too!

[924RACR]

I don't get paid to race. I get paid to develop, tune, and test ABS, traction, and vehicle stability systems for Bosch.

_________________
Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype

[tmb-racing]

Cool-so your an engineer? With your post I thought you were a professional race driver.Now I don't feel so bad-I didn't know of any series where we can run our old cars and get paid.

[AppleBit]

if you really want to spend the money and make your 924 fast you are going to spend a lot of money.

Here is what I want someone to do to their stock 924.

1. Buy a bigger better cam (at least a webcam stage 1) but not too wild of a cam
2. Buy a distributorless ignition system (maybe from electromotive)
3. Buy a Franco Automatic Vario-cam timing gear

Tell me what the difference is. I am certain this will drop the car into the high 7's at the least by these mod's. Yes, it will cost a total of up to $2000 but this will get you started on the fast track and a car that starts every single time without any issues.

- Jon McCullough


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Classic British Sports Car Restoration v6 + v8 Engine Conversion Swaps

Porsche 924 Wide Body LS1 Corvette 500 Horsepower Engine