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S2 931 EFI Conversion DIY
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
12-62-1-747-281 BMW water temp sensor fits the 931 water housing on back of head with no drilling/tapping and I have the calibration #s..
Works great for me..


So turns out that ECS Tuning, which carries the injector cups needed (with the 058 prefix) also has that BMW sensor, even cheaper, all of $5... slam dunk, ordering now!
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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 286
Location: Rockford, IL

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:
Fasteddie313 wrote:
12-62-1-747-281 BMW water temp sensor fits the 931 water housing on back of head with no drilling/tapping and I have the calibration #s..
Works great for me..


So turns out that ECS Tuning, which carries the injector cups needed (with the 058 prefix) also has that BMW sensor, even cheaper, all of $5... slam dunk, ordering now!


I have had bad luck ordering from ECS recently for parts for my 931 which they listed as in stock at time of order, then sat on their hands for a week (no updates to order status) before I finally inquired what the hold up was, at which point they told me the items were not only _not in stock_ (cs rep showed me screenshot of updated page "see? it shows us right here we never had them") but unobtainable. Waste of my time... at least they refunded me right away.

I hope you have better service from them; glad you found a cheap part.

---
Edit: should have offered an alternative instead of ranting; that was unproductive. I hope you don't need it but here it is anyhow. I 've always had great experience ordering from 1stVWParts:
https://www.1stvwparts.com/oem-parts/volkswagen-insert-058133555?c=bD0xJm49U2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHM%3D
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2039
Location: MI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:

Hey, FastEddie, feel like posting up that BMW sensor cal in this thread?


Sorry it took so long bud..


temp C-temp F-DME sensor-gauge sensor
[deg C] [deg F] [ohms] [ohms]

-40 -40 44300 165400
-35 -31 35390 128300
-30 -22 26360 92900
-25 -13 20060 67700
-20 -4 16100 53600
-15 5 11800 41500
-10 14 9280 28450
-5 23 7520 22750
0 32 6550 18000
10 50 4180 11600
20 68 2800 7500
30 86 1880 5100
40 104 1350 3340
50 122 940 2280
60 140 710 1585
70 158 540 1245
80 176 425 900
90 194 320 650
100 212 230 460
110 230 173 350
120 248 140 262
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweetness, thanks.

Meantime - ECS charged my card for the parts, so with luck they're on their way! The temp sensor is nothing special, but those injector cups seem to be a little more uncommon, so fingers crossed.

Gotta order up some injectors soon and figure out the TPS now!
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update parts arrived from ECS yesterday no issues.

The injector cups are looking good after trimming for length - though the injectors I have (long-nose from Audi TT, Bosch 0 280 155 892) are oddly a touch wide at the base. After test-fitting with some dead spares I have, I've determined I can file down the extra bit that sticks out on them to get them to properly insert all the way into the cup and get a good seal with the o-ring at the bottom.

Interestingly enough, I don't see the same flanges on the EV14 injector (Bosch 0 280 158 123) that was suggested from the 997 Turbo, also a long-nose injector. That's a 627cc/min injector vs. the 365cc/min for the TT injector, need to review specs and my targets, compare pricing... those Audi ones aren't cheap, and might be preferable to not have to cut up new injectors...

Also got the aforementioned BMW temp sender to bolt in place of the stock Thermo-time switch; happened to have a spare water elbow laying around and was able to compare the fit (including fitment inside the elbow in the water passage) - looks great, fits perfect of course, and actually the internal part protrudes less in the water passage than the stock switch (though still plenty enough to get a good reading)... plus the electrical connector is smaller than stock (being the typical Jr. Power Timer design as used on the injectors themselves), which might help clearance ever so slightly.

Edit: created a new album on FB and uploaded a couple of pics of the above...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213995863405499&set=pcb.10213995866565578&type=3&theater

Coming together nicely... next step check fitment and order up the TPS and injectors...
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2039
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:
BMW sensor, even cheaper, all of $5...


$5? Nice..

Glad my PN was right and you found the right one..
I pulled mine out of a parts car and discovered it happened to fit nicely right there..

Where are you guys planning to put your MS computers?
I put mine on the backside of the kick panel under the glovebox, and my fuse boxes and FrankenCIS controller computer, with an 8' harness, and ran the harness behind the heater and out the hole by the brake booster area where the AC lines used to be..
Worked..
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I chatted with Beckett a bit a few days back, and he had what I think is the best answer - under the steering column where the Lambda system ECU is. First thought was on the hump in front of the radio in place of the DITC ECU, but that does still see some leakage due to firewall, heater core etc. So though the Microsquirt is mostly close off, it's not completely sealed... and under the column will for sure be even safer.

I still have the AC lines, so will have to use the other holes. Plus I've added a line for the boost gauge, and still want to add another for the boost controller I'll eventually do... yeah, may have to yet punch one more hole through the firewall to handle it all! At least there's some good grommets available, I intend to use one with an integral sleeve to reduce the water intrusion risk. While I don't plan to drive the car much in the wet, it still can see rain in my driveway... and the only reasons to avoid rainy days are slow wipers and one leak directly on my foot on the gas pedal... some day I'll fix those...

I guess another question would be initial cals - is there a convenient way to share them? Would be mega-helpful to have a known good starting point, even though I'll review all the settings of course...
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bunch more real progress yesterday - pics again on my FB album.

Stripped most of the engine down for conversion. Only the intake and WUR remain. Fuel rail is installed!! 997 Turbo injectors and those modified injector inserts did the job beautifully, looks pretty much factory.

Did have to re-drill holes in the mounting straps for the Ideola fuel rail; not sure why, but there was a small lateral displacement from the original location, plus maybe my injectors were a bit shorter than what was originally used for the design of the template. Thankfully not at all a bit deal.

Also started fitting up the crank sensor, also from Ideola. Sensor and bracket fit look excellent, though gusseting the bracket was recommended to avoid flex at high RPM - will do that before final install. Also will have to revise the AC belt tensioning scheme, since I intend to keep that (mine does work) and the tensioner interferes with the sensor when mounted, unfortunately.

Next I have to drain the coolant and remove the rad shroud, possibly also the rad itself, so I can get in there with the impact and remove the crank pulley to fit the trigger wheel. Have to drain coolant anyway to fit the temp sensor at the back of the head.

Also have to remove the intake to helicoil one of the throttle body mounting holes. Still a little uncertain, but leaning towards installing the IC now, which will mean moving the throttle body to the front of the intake plenum - with cutting and welding. A little daunting, but well within my range of capabilities. I guess before I commit to that I need to cut off the nose panel and prove to myself that fitting the IC is pretty easy, relatively.

Ordering up fuel fittings today, start getting that plumbed in right.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2039
Location: MI

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:

Next I have to drain the coolant and remove the rad shroud, possibly also the rad itself, so I can get in there with the impact and remove the crank pulley to fit the trigger wheel.


I'd try with a breaker bar and something kinda light that you can swing fast to hit it with from underneath, like a 2' piece of 1" NPT pipe..
A fast strike with something lighter works better for me than a slow strike from something heavier like a hammer..

You also might be able to get it to break loose with the starter motor if you can determine the crank rotates the correct way to remove the bolt.. That usually works for me too but I haven't ever removed this bolt on a 924 yet..

I need to figure out a crank position sensor for my car eventually too..
I have a bag of LS coils from a 6.0 Hummer sitting somewhere..

924RACR wrote:

leaning towards installing the IC now


These days I try to lean more towards one project at a time, lol..

Are your old Turbo injectors any good?
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
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Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have an impact gun, so that's the easiest approach for me anyway; have to drain coolant to some degree for the coolant temp sensor, and my rad fans and bushings want attention, so... easy enough to just deal with it all at once.

My old injectors and inserts are good, injectors recently checked/some replaced. Haven't committed to their disposal yet; there's another 931 in the area in need of some parts to swap in to make it live again...

PS - any interest in sharing a cal for MS to get up and running?
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Vaughan Scott
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2039
Location: MI

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

924RACR wrote:

PS - any interest in sharing a cal for MS to get up and running?


I don't run EFI or ignition or the same tach pickup as you with it sooo... I don't think I could help much..


I attempted to turn the S1 931 ignition charts into a MS map and got this..


I think I would/will start with that when I start tuning ignition..

My VE map looks like this...


But once again I am still running CIS so I have no idea if that would apply to a car on injectors..

And my AFR target map..

And am running complete fuel cut on overrun iirc <2% TPS and <33-35 ish kpa it cuts all fuel no no popping and stuff on decel.. Cheating instead of tuning decel..
Works good.. I think..
I run with the AFR correction on and it works great for cruising..

But this is all amateur.. I don't really know what I'm doing so take it with a grain of salt..

I am also running custom/outlaw firmware on my MS so my tune files probably wouldn't even upload to another MS..

As far as injector dead time and all that is set up for the FrankenCIS, not injectors but a DPR..

This is how I have my rad fan set.. Including the lower temp thermostat..

Seems to work good for me.. Never ever get hot..

I prolly have the cals for GM IAT/MAT sensor if you want and am running an omnipower 3 or 4 bar map, I forget..
Cheap ebay MAPs don't work in my experience..

And an innovate mtx-l wideband..
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
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Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - sorry, I thought you were running a closer match in setup... still should help at least get me off the ground, which was the main point.

For now I'm going to keep with the stock 931 air temp sensor, thanks... do have a GM 3bar MAP sensor, from Amazon, so may not be much better than the eBay specials, I guess we'll see!!

Still have stock rad with temp switch for the fans, along with AC control. Could stand to swap out the fans for newer ones, but for now this will keep things alive.

Latest progress - got the coolant temp sensor in, along with TPS - ended up having to shorten the throttle shaft for better clearance to the intake - and the crank sensor and wheel are almost done, just awaiting parts to install a connector on the sensor before I bolt it in for good.

Then it's time for fuel plumbing and wiring... and IC install and plumbing that too...
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Vaughan Scott
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8334
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progress has been modest at this end, but time for another update.

Got my nose panel cut off, and have started fitting the 951 IC in. Seems like, in retrospect, that while the 951 IC is cool and all, it'd be less work if I'd fitted an aftermarket IC core - less cutting and reshaping the frame to clear and flow air. Though I would wonder about getting enough cold air to the rad...

I am thinking that I'll probably end up adding slots to my front bumper itself to get more air up at the IC core, not just rely on the badge panel slots - mimicing the GTR/951 front end a bit.

I've decided to stick/revert to using stock coil, distributor and ignition igniter (the small box on the heat sink on the fender), for simplicity's sake. This makes the fuel system plumbing to feed the fuel rail pretty tight and annoying, but I think it'll be doable with a hose end that goes directly to an o-ring boss fitting. Less common usage, but workable.

Have made up a new bracket to locate the fuel pressure regulator where the old stock coolant overflow bottle was. I guess the old coolant bracket could be used, but I put mine somewhere I can't remember, so I've made a new bracket from sheet steel to bolt to the oil-air separator bracket and the frame rail, easy enough. Just gotta tack on some captive nuts and throw a coat of paint on the brackets, we're in business and I can start running fuel lines for real.


Link to photo gallery:
https://www.facebook.com/vaughan.scott.3/media_set?set=a.10213995862605479&type=3
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
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Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:11 pm    Post subject: Pot-riot update Reply with quote



Nothing worth taking pics of yet, things are largely in the same place etc. as before this long weekend - but the fuel system is completed and pressure-tested, and wiring is mostly connected.

Will soon be able to plug in and talk to the MS ECU (still need a ground, don't have a suitable ring terminal for that, have to go buy), check all the sensor cals etc. Also have still to run power to the injectors, and tie into the stock ignition/igniter. Plus replace some old wiring for the oil pressure and temp sensors.

Seems like I can easily run 2 injectors for each bank, I seem to recall the 944 was set up this way - any reasons I shouldn't?

Then it's still just about fitting that IC and stitching the intake tract together. Gotta get back on that this week. Oh, yeah, and configuring a boost controller.
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
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Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Fun with sensors Reply with quote

Start of June update: wiring well underway!

Got much of the core wiring done, most importantly including power and ground for the MS ECU. Now looking at sensor cals. TPS was super-easy to cal, a no-brainer, very happy with that. MAP sensor is good out of the box.

IAT (stock original 931 S2 part) was showing garbage data: 20F with intermittent glitches to 40 or 0F. Finally pulled the plug and checked resistance on the sensor, only to find open loop, sensor is NG! Well, that'd explain that!

Tied in the GM IAT I had already bought, works great, gives appropriate values. So I'll have to mount that, bummer... but at least I had it, and even better at least I already planned mods to the intake. Welding on a new bung for this sensor will be no big deal, on one of the intake pipes (vs. in the intake itself, which could suffer from heat soak as FastEddie noted).

Next victim, the CLT sensor. Unfortunately, it's giving me the same symptoms as the IAT was; it ought not to be, since it's a new BMW sensor. Will probably have to remove it from the car and check resistance... At least I didn't already fill the coolant back in; it's a paint to get to, but at least draining the coolant isn't needed as well.

Still have to tie in the WBO2, but that's already up and running, shouldn't be a challenge.

Also still have to wire in the injectors and ignition system.

Then I need to get serious about mounting and plumbing in this intercooler...
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