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Solid Lifter Lash Caps

 
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 715
Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Solid Lifter Lash Caps Reply with quote

What are the recommended brand of lash caps for use with solid valve lifters ? I have stock 9mm valve stems. I understand that old Alfa Romeo ones fit. Are there other brands that fit, most seem to be 8mm and smaller or inch size? Could I use the .375 ones which are about .020" larger?
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motormouth  



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 112
Location: Canton

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some of these for my big valve kit... haven't installed them yet though

under "Manley 8mm Lash Caps"

http://garage.ideola.com/prod-EngineMods.html
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but standard valves are 9mm. Talked to machinist and were going to start with new longer valves, then see how accurately we can measure and maybe go with the Alfa ones as tho more expensive at about $6 ea from Centerline, the cost of multiple disassembly and reassembly of the head to shave the valve stem can easily overwhelm the initial cost. If going to US made will use either Comp Cam or Manley for 3/8" valve stem which are generally .080 thick some at .060 to .120. Alfa shims range from about .055 to .150 by .001 increment. The under size reground cam and solid lifters make our beginning gap with stock valves in the .180 to .200 range. That is all theoretical as we roughly measured the cam lobe base diameter then measured a solid lifter and stock one with unknown adjuster screw and did some rough math. We have a lot of measuring to do yet before buying anything!
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kevingross  



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
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Location: Stow, MA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd check with Del West.
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No contest. . .

http://www.precisionshims.com.au/
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta How in the world do you find this stuff? That might actually work.

The Del West titanium stuff is amazing, unfortunately I'm not building a $25k motor so its a bit out of my budget. I just want a motor I can get 40-50 hours of run time out of and would like to use a reground cam that I have on hand, which would get a few more HP. The combination of the thinner solid lifters and the reground cam is making it difficult. The Parner lifters are about .110" thinner than the "typical" stock lifter. I measured about 10 with
various screws and took a rough average.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait wait wait, hang on.

The Manley lash caps that I provide with the Sten Parner lifters are a hat style that you can "seat" onto the riser on the underside of the lifter. You don't need to install them onto the valve itself.

The big issue will be if you are resetting the valve tip height by installing new or reworking seats / valve train. If you're attempting to install solid lifters into an existing head where you're not doing any other work, THEN you may need to purchase the Precision shims that Rasta linked to.
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideola, very interesting thought. The difficulty here is the reground cam which is smaller in dia. We are going to rework the seats, then test assemble the head without the valve seals and measure clearances. With the reground cam we will either use a pair of lash caps, one on the valve and one on the lifter, get the precision shims, or if we don't like what we are seeing just punt and stick the stock lifters and cam back in.

Another thought I had was to get some hardened drill rod about .400 dia, cut it off into about .070-.080 lengths as shims and tuck them up into the stock lifters as their pockets are about .150 deep. We rejected that one for now.

This is a very good demonstration of why not to use reground cams, I just got a good deal on it several years ago and would like to use it.
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I should post how this turned out. The setup is stock NA valves, the Parner solid lifters, an essentially Stage 1 valve spring from Britian Smith, and an Elgin 66-15 reground cam.

The Elgin cam is about .100" smaller in base circle diameter and the Parner lifters are much thinner than stock so we ended up with a Manly 8mm lash cap .080" thick stuck to the lifter upside down with a bit of grease and then Alfa 9mm lash caps for the old 105 motor on the valve stem. Cost of them about $6 each ranging from about 2.65m to 3.10mm and got 7 right the first time with the clearance on one intake too high and it took about 15 minutes to disassemble and regrind to a shorter length. Thanks Dan for the idea. The Alfa shims range fro
m 1.500mm to 3.,500mm. Then fellow that Rasta suggested will make about anything and the prices are fine, but the Alfa one come from 150 miles away with a 2 day delivery vs Australia.

The valve spring set would be called a Stage 1 set by the hot rod motor crowd. We had no factory Specs so all these numbers are just we measured from trying to measure installed valve heights. The stock outer springs measured at 107 lb/inch. The stage ! at about 142 lb/inch. With and installed spring height of 1.650"(tough to measure in that pocket), the closed spring pressure was 135lb with the stock spring and spacers(no additional spacers) and 185 with the thick shim provided with the set. Pressure at .500 lift with the Stage 1 was 290 lb.

The machinist was uncomfortable with that closed pressure on the intake so we are using the stock space seat on the intake cut down down in diamater about .040" due to the heavier wire valve spring and using the thicker spacer and 3 shims to eliminate the valve rotator on the exhaust side. The retainers for the stage 1 springs had been cut down for the increased inner diameter of the springs also.

Sorry I don't have all the numbers, but we saw fairly quickly where this was going and had read enough determine where we we wanted to go. We won't have the higher open spring pressure, but this is not being built as a higher than stock rpm motor.

The Elgin Cam is interesting as it appears to be designed to work with this head which stalls out on flow at about .400 lift. Instead of pointed like a stock one, it retains the stock like lift of about .470 but is much more "squared" off the maintain the lift in the .300-to .450 range much longer. This is a visualized rather than measured observation. Back in the day Webcam also seems to have made cams with this characteristic.

One take away is that in order to use the stock valves with a reground cam using the stock lifters would be very difficult as the existing lifters do hot have enough contact area to use existing valve shims
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeJinCO wrote:
One take away is that in order to use the stock valves with a reground cam using the stock lifters would be very difficult as the existing lifters do hot have enough contact area to use existing valve shims

Actually, I have a solution for that, too.

I have a similar challenge on the Edelweiss regrind cams that I resell. With stock lifters, you can use any number of standard 8.9mm shims available at any of the big resellers. I found that ~2.4mm shims work well with the Edelweiss cam. These are perfectly sized to sit inside the riser but beneath the grub screw. The beauty of this approach is that you can still use the grub screws for fine-tuning clearance, instead of having to regrind shims as with solid lifters.



Thanks for sharing your work and findings. I'd love to get more details on the springs you and Britain are using. It's a pain that the spring seats have to be modified. I wish we had a better alternative for high performance springs, but haven't had time to research and chase down.
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MikeJinCO  



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the spring setup from Britain and don't know where they came from. I'll call the machinist and get the the free length, ID OD and wire diameter before he does final assembly. That should be enough with the spring rate to get into a spring catalog.
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve Spring Measurements

These dimensions are what I measured, so not necessarily the specs.

Stock Springs:
Free Length: OUTER 1.938" 49.2mm INNER 2.002" 50.9mm
OD: OUTER 1.388 34 INNER .853
Wire Size : OUTER .182 4.64 INNER .098 2.5mm
Coil Pitch: OUTER ,489 12.44 INNER .325 8,25
Spring Rate : OUTER 107 lb/in INNER 40 lb/in


Stage 1
Free Length: OUTER 2.270 in INNER 1.885
OD: OUTER 1.250 INNER .911
Wire Size : OUTER .157 INNER .125
Coil Pitch : OUTER .575 INNER .300
Spring Rate: OUTER 142 lb/in INNER 100 lb/in

Sorry about the typing but the system won't let me make a table and I don't really want to do it again in Word format.

Some day when I have nothing better to do I might go thru a spring catalog and try to find them. If I build another motor It will have the 931 head and I will probably use Ferrera 6mm valves the custom valve guides and the Ford Modular Block beehive springs and retainers. Same valve size but significantly lighter reciprocating weight and a much smaller stem thru the air stream.
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