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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2609
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Will be fun to follow the progress! So many hoses under the US cars bonnet, im sweating just by looking at the nest of tubes and hoses 
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1980 924 Turbo
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: |
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I am not sure if this is the 95hp engine. I think not though..
Yes, a ton of hoses, and many were deleted for this project!
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So the clearance on the bracketed sensor wires was pretty slim.
I changed the mounting of the side bracket to locate behind the large main bracket, and undid and refastened all of the bolts, one at a time. This was tedious but resulted in a much better clearance.
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I have several days wait, Saturday at soonest, before the coolant hose arrives and I am able to continue. AutohausAZ had it cheapest, part number 047121175.
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1980 Porsche 931
1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 3:33 am Post subject: |
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OK I couldn't wait. I cinched the hose up about 1cm and it is not leaking. It should be fine until I get another..
So over the last several days, Ciprian and I have been talking and he assisted me getting the car running with a basic tune, but it still needs some work. I have a wideband O2 sensor and AFR gauge that I purchased originally for the 931 before the transmission decided to stop working on me.. I never got to it, so I will use this here.
I have some basic tune-up work to attend to as well -- oil change, brake flush, new pads and shoes, etc. I have a fresh set of plugs as well for when we are done tuning.
Anyway..
First drive: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hBiyv4E2BCZqtG7H8
The first turn out of the neighborhood took me by surprise with how much torque so quickly. I am going to enjoy this upgrade very much!!
Engine bay clip with some throttle blips: https://photos.app.goo.gl/o9qfjUrK4jbHqjfZ8
And I think I have some very slight pinging. Maybe headphones would be able to hear it: https://photos.app.goo.gl/guZsd7qteZU2Zps69
I'm going to retard the ignition very slightly and then drive a bit more.
Also, I need a phone mount.  Maybe a windshield suction cup mount would be best? I would like to be able to use it on track, any recommendations?
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1980 Porsche 931
1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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Riggard
Joined: 16 Feb 2021
Posts: 63
Location: Heemskerk, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Very cool! Mine is lying in the attic waiting for time to get installed. (gotta paint the car first)
Very motivating to see threads like these. |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8883
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Well done with the install. The first USA 924SC! Well at least with this kit.
I recommend changing to colder plugs, those could allow you to run a bit more advance.
A proper tune is obviously needed, that wideband setup will allow you to set it up yourself..without going on a dyno.
Have a look about those CIS upgrades we talked about…i think there is some more power and torque trapped there in the case of USA 924s.
It would also be interesting to see how that O2 box is controlling the frequency valve and if it is doing anything to it now or not.
Later on you could either switch to UTCIS if it proves to be what we need it to be or perhaps Eddie can sort you out with controling the mixture with a microsquirt via that frequency valve.
Cheers!
Edit: So this is the first one up and running in USA, there are 2 or 3 running in UK, one in Australia…i havent heard from the guy from Canada…and Europe is lagging behind…well except the two cars i supercharged myself here.
I’m picking up valueable lessons from each installed kit. I’ll update the how-to video and the information on the website.
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Riggard wrote: | Very cool! Mine is lying in the attic waiting for time to get installed. (gotta paint the car first)
Very motivating to see threads like these. |
Truthfully I need to do some body work as well to my car... I look forward to seeing your car in paint! Are you changing color or refreshing?
| morghen wrote: | Well done with the install. The first USA 924SC! Well at least with this kit.
I recommend changing to colder plugs, those could allow you to run a bit more advance.
A proper tune is obviously needed, that wideband setup will allow you to set it up yourself..without going on a dyno.
Have a look about those CIS upgrades we talked about…i think there is some more power and torque trapped there in the case of USA 924s.
It would also be interesting to see how that O2 box is controlling the frequency valve and if it is doing anything to it now or not.
Later on you could either switch to UTCIS if it proves to be what we need it to be or perhaps Eddie can sort you out with controling the mixture with a microsquirt via that frequency valve. |
Thank you for the kit and all your assistance so far. I just got back from another couple drives and gave it another ~20-30deg clockwise of the air/fuel mixture. Still slight pinging noise -- very slight but definitely there. >4k RPM and full throttle.
Even without full throttle this is excellent fun though! As you said at one point, it just feels like it should! The torque curve feels similar to my foot, but comes on much sooner, like 1500-2000 rather than 3000-3500. And it revs faster, which is delightful as well.
Do you have a recommendation on what plugs to use? I currently have the stock spec Bosch WR6DC+ installed as well as my fresh set.. Should I go to the WR5DC+ then? Will this help mitigate the pinging then also?
I will be getting the wideband installed ASAP. As to the O2 box, I don't think I have ever had it -- it's a part of the two-part speedometer cable yes? I have only ever had a single piece cable in this car. The round multipin wiring connector is just hanging out down there in the engine bay..
If I end up with a euro CIS and ignition setup I will likely try to track your upgrade path as closely as I can.
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Some things I have learned from the install:
Belt is not to be tightened too much -- it doesn't need to be as tight as the timing belt -- I actually shredded a rib off of the belt due to it being too tight. I have ordered another (and a spare) but was assured this will run fine as the belt specification allows for it.
Tighten the band clamps on the intake charge piping as tight as possible with a screwdriver by hand, on the reinforced areas, and be sure that's where it is. Then double check the clamps again after each of the first several drives. In the installation pictures, I showed removing the rear engine hook, but also the forward hook comes very close to where the upmost and middle pipes join and so I was fooled into thinking I had the connecting boot moved properly over both pieces and I did not. One thing that helped with fitment here was starting with the upmost pipe into the throttle body, push it toward the throttle body and hold it there while screwing the clamp tight.
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1980 Porsche 931
1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8883
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| jacobroufa wrote: |
Thank you for the kit and all your assistance so far. I just got back from another couple drives and gave it another ~20-30deg clockwise of the air/fuel mixture. Still slight pinging noise -- very slight but definitely there. >4k RPM and full throttle.
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You are very welcome Jacob, like i said, if i'm not mistaken, you are the first that showed interest in this kit and you are the first in USA to have it running on your car.
| jacobroufa wrote: |
Even without full throttle this is excellent fun though! As you said at one point, it just feels like it should! The torque curve feels similar to my foot, but comes on much sooner, like 1500-2000 rather than 3000-3500. And it revs faster, which is delightful as well.
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Seems you're very pretty close to the best tune you can get from the original engine management and thats exactly how the car should feel. Bring on all the torque from down low, keep it linear until higher rpm. Not a lot of top end extra, but a quite noticeable low and mid RPM change. As it should have been from the factory.
| jacobroufa wrote: |
Do you have a recommendation on what plugs to use? I currently have the stock spec Bosch WR6DC+ installed as well as my fresh set.. Should I go to the WR5DC+ then? Will this help mitigate the pinging then also?
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You're running the factory recommendation for the NA, as am i currently. If you're getting new plugs, you should directly go for Bosch WR4 or NGK8. Thats what i'll do pretty soon.
| jacobroufa wrote: |
I will be getting the wideband installed ASAP. As to the O2 box, I don't think I have ever had it -- it's a part of the two-part speedometer cable yes? I have only ever had a single piece cable in this car. The round multipin wiring connector is just hanging out down there in the engine bay..
If I end up with a euro CIS and ignition setup I will likely try to track your upgrade path as closely as I can.
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So the frequency valve is disconnected? Anyway, judging from how your plugs look like, mixture is not too far off.
The V2+ package will come in the form of a bolt on intercooler, a silicone TB charge tube to replace the 3D printed one, and optionally UTCIS and a bigger crank pulley for a bit more boost. This last bit i have to test on my car first and if it works with the 924 engine i will offer it, if not, we'll stick to the current pulley setup.
| jacobroufa wrote: |
Some things I have learned from the install:
Belt is not to be tightened too much -- it doesn't need to be as tight as the timing belt -- I actually shredded a rib off of the belt due to it being too tight. I have ordered another (and a spare) but was assured this will run fine as the belt specification allows for it.
Tighten the band clamps on the intake charge piping as tight as possible with a screwdriver by hand, on the reinforced areas, and be sure that's where it is. Then double check the clamps again after each of the first several drives. In the installation pictures, I showed removing the rear engine hook, but also the forward hook comes very close to where the upmost and middle pipes join and so I was fooled into thinking I had the connecting boot moved properly over both pieces and I did not. One thing that helped with fitment here was starting with the upmost pipe into the throttle body, push it toward the throttle body and hold it there while screwing the clamp tight. |
Crucial bit of info, i will add this on the website as part of the official guide today. Thank you!
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| morghen wrote: | | go for Bosch WR4 or NGK8 |
Will do! Going two steps colder is not too much? It looks like the WR4 DPO is the 964 Turbo stock plug? Those are expensive. NGK8 as long as it's "8" temperature rated (for NGK) and has the proper thread pitch?
14 x 1.25 with a 19mm reach..
| morghen wrote: | | So the frequency valve is disconnected? |
As far as I know the valve itself is connected. The O2 box doesn't exist so maybe that is the implication -- that the valve will not operate outside of a failure mode if the speedometer O2 box is gone? I still have the O2 sensor in the car however.. I don't know enough about how the CIS setup works in that regard to say, or how to measure it to tell if it is working.. Any suggestion?
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1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8883
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Yea, those wr4 plugs are not cheap. I was also thinking of getting nkg8.
Get the afr gauge and wideband set up and lets see what it does now.
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Ok! I am going to see what I can do about pulling that down pipe for the exhaust then..
I see my local auto parts store has NGK 4554 R5671A-8 plugs in stock, so I will have to pick up a set in the next day or so.
Wideband first!
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I was also thinking, if I go with the euro CIS and ignition.. I did a cursory look on ebay.de for these items and found a couple distributors -- for not much more I can get the 123ignition distributor (mittelmotor distributor's OEM) which is fully tunable -- would that be more worthwhile?
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1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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kondzi
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 485
Location: Poland/EU
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| jacobroufa wrote: |
I was also thinking, if I go with the euro CIS and ignition.. I did a cursory look on ebay.de for these items and found a couple distributors -- for not much more I can get the 123ignition distributor (mittelmotor distributor's OEM) which is fully tunable -- would that be more worthwhile? |
The power is in the ignition table, not in the AFR. Same for pinging. If you can tune it (and each and every engine is different), then you can get most of it.
BUT you cannot road tune it, you need a dyno. I mean you can do some tuning, but to give you an idea... A road tune of a 964 porsche brought me to 230 HP at crank. On the dyno they found another 70 HP. Maybe I suck with road tune 
PS. On the video it sounds like ping to me.
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Konrad
'89 951 US
'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded) |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2609
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| kondzi wrote: | | jacobroufa wrote: |
I was also thinking, if I go with the euro CIS and ignition.. I did a cursory look on ebay.de for these items and found a couple distributors -- for not much more I can get the 123ignition distributor (mittelmotor distributor's OEM) which is fully tunable -- would that be more worthwhile? |
The power is in the ignition table, not in the AFR. Same for pinging. If you can tune it (and each and every engine is different), then you can get most of it.
BUT you cannot road tune it, you need a dyno. I mean you can do some tuning, but to give you an idea... A road tune of a 964 porsche brought me to 230 HP at crank. On the dyno they found another 70 HP. Maybe I suck with road tune
PS. On the video it sounds like ping to me. |
Thats not really true for a bosted engine, especially without IC. Then AFR is very significant for detonation and thus timing, which affects power alot.
Before buying lots of things start adjusting what you have here first
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1980 924 Turbo
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kondzi
Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 485
Location: Poland/EU
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Cedric wrote: | | kondzi wrote: | | jacobroufa wrote: |
I was also thinking, if I go with the euro CIS and ignition.. I did a cursory look on ebay.de for these items and found a couple distributors -- for not much more I can get the 123ignition distributor (mittelmotor distributor's OEM) which is fully tunable -- would that be more worthwhile? |
The power is in the ignition table, not in the AFR. Same for pinging. If you can tune it (and each and every engine is different), then you can get most of it.
BUT you cannot road tune it, you need a dyno. I mean you can do some tuning, but to give you an idea... A road tune of a 964 porsche brought me to 230 HP at crank. On the dyno they found another 70 HP. Maybe I suck with road tune
PS. On the video it sounds like ping to me. |
Thats not really true for a bosted engine, especially without IC. Then AFR is very significant for detonation and thus timing, which affects power alot.
Before buying lots of things start adjusting what you have here first |
Agree on adjusting first as is
Disagree on AFR vs IGN here - it's barely boosted It's US model so what's the stock CR 8.5:1? I expect max power should appear before knock.
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Konrad
'89 951 US
'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded) |
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the tips Konrad and Cedric. Freeing up an additional 70hp sounds like a very ideal case!
Yes, my intent absolutely is to maximize with what I have currently. There is so much to do still!
I need to install the wideband O2 sensor and AFR gauge before anything else. Those are on my shelf and that will make a significant impact in my ability to tune by myself..
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1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016
Posts: 531
Location: Belvidere, IL
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Yesterday I got the wideband installed and got some tuning done. I had to retard the timing slightly, currently at 6-7 degrees advance, down from 11-12 where I had it. I ended up leaning the air/fuel mix by about 90° counter clockwise on the adjustment screw.
I tried to install the NGK 4554 plugs, which are the proper spec in every way except they're solid terminal, not screw...  so I have to figure that out to get a colder plug. Stock plugs will be OK for now, and I may even try to increase timing another degree or two, for more pep directly on throttle.
I am having a minor issue with placement of clamps and boot on the throttle body to the elbow charge pipe. I will be taking that off here this afternoon and adjusting its placement. Other than that, due to my measurement of timing and afr, I am confident putting my foot in it a bit, and had some fun driving about yesterday other than the pipe coming off a couple times. Looking forward to more and more confidence building here as I want this to be daily driveable in nice weather again!
Next up, brake maintenance -- new pads and shoes maybe, and a bleed -- and rear sway bar retrofit.
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