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16v head swap? lets work it out!
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: 16v head swap? lets work it out! Reply with quote

I know there was a thread talking about this. But lets get to the point.

The 924 Bore pitch is 95mm i've also seen 96mm?? but im pretty sure it's 95mm. I'll get measurements at work properly to be 100% unless someone knows for sure what it is?

If we can get people to help find engines with 95mm (or 96mm to be confirmed) I can use photoshop and overlay headgaskets together to see how well they'll fit on the block with stud holes and over all head size.

I've measured 2 already.

the SRT4 head and the evo x head.
The STR4 head studs are to far away to make work.
The Evo x head is probably to wide. But the stud holes are very close. To make work the block would need some modifications as the holes on the head are to close to structural parts to relocate. Might be possible but the head over hangs to the sides quite a bit.

Black is the 924 block and red is the cylinder head.

evo x on 924 by paul ilieski, on Flickr

srt4 on 924 by paul ilieski, on Flickr
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 669
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been working out details to make a billet head since other options don't seem to work just right. See this thread where it was brought up last...one of our going off topic diversions

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=40910&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Edit: I should add its not top priority. There are a few things ahead of it on the list.

Here is another link

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=30116&highlight=combo+valve
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car


Last edited by Mike9311 on Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike9311 wrote:
I have been working out details to make a billet head since other options don't seem to work just right. See this thread where it was brought up last...one of our going off topic diversions

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=40910&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Edit: I should add its not top priority. There are a few things ahead of it on the list.


I have seen that thread along with a few others. You have a CNC or have access to one? If I had access to a big CNC I probably would have made my own head already. I've only got a few lathes and milling machines.

Hence this thread. I think there would be a head somewhere that would work.

I Know ways that can potentially improve the head but I won't have before and after results as I'm building a built motor, not slowly building it while it's on the road.
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 669
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 and 5 axis mills but I am working up to the head project with other projects. So far I have done a ton of research on what others have done and it has lead me back and forth from 8V to 16V and then back to 8 at least for the turbo. To start I planned on a heavy mod of a stock head before going straight to a all new head. I geared up for that and paused since I have to get a few other things done first.
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike9311 wrote:
3 and 5 axis mills but I am working up to the head project with other projects. So far I have done a ton of research on what others have done and it has lead me back and forth from 8V to 16V and then back to 8 at least for the turbo. To start I planned on a heavy mod of a stock head before going straight to a all new head. I geared up for that and paused since I have to get a few other things done first.


I saw the 5 axis on the video. If I buy one. I would be purely buying one as a toy as we don't do engineering any more as much. I still would love one.

Yes I have thought about 8v vs 16v before. Flow wise 16v takes. And when you're going for big power and rpm there's no looking back from 16v. But you can do the same with 8v with good head work and a set of cams.
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulyy wrote:
Mike9311 wrote:
3 and 5 axis mills but I am working up to the head project with other projects. So far I have done a ton of research on what others have done and it has lead me back and forth from 8V to 16V and then back to 8 at least for the turbo. To start I planned on a heavy mod of a stock head before going straight to a all new head. I geared up for that and paused since I have to get a few other things done first.


I saw the 5 axis on the video. If I buy one. I would be purely buying one as a toy as we don't do engineering any more as much. I still would love one.

Yes I have thought about 8v vs 16v before. Flow wise 16v takes. And when you're going for big power and rpm there's no looking back from 16v. But you can do the same with 8v with good head work and a set of cams.


I wouldn't mind a second smaller one sometimes when this one gets too busy. Its awesome and very flexible. So many ways to do the same thing. I'll machine something and then try and do it better/faster another way

I just want to get the intake/exhaust valve size ratio closer to what is considered normal and with a much lighter valvetrain. Plus it would be nice to have a 8V that uses some stock items. Plus look stock from the outside. Along with better flow I would like to see better cooling. Once that is figured out and actually built, move to 16V. Its funny how in the USA, 944 turbo 3.0 builds seemingly always use the 8V head even when starting with a S2. Europe seems to use the 16V head.
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike9311 wrote:
Paulyy wrote:
Mike9311 wrote:
3 and 5 axis mills but I am working up to the head project with other projects. So far I have done a ton of research on what others have done and it has lead me back and forth from 8V to 16V and then back to 8 at least for the turbo. To start I planned on a heavy mod of a stock head before going straight to a all new head. I geared up for that and paused since I have to get a few other things done first.


I saw the 5 axis on the video. If I buy one. I would be purely buying one as a toy as we don't do engineering any more as much. I still would love one.

Yes I have thought about 8v vs 16v before. Flow wise 16v takes. And when you're going for big power and rpm there's no looking back from 16v. But you can do the same with 8v with good head work and a set of cams.


I wouldn't mind a second smaller one sometimes when this one gets too busy. Its awesome and very flexible. So many ways to do the same thing. I'll machine something and then try and do it better/faster another way

I just want to get the intake/exhaust valve size ratio closer to what is considered normal and with a much lighter valvetrain. Plus it would be nice to have a 8V that uses some stock items. Plus look stock from the outside. Along with better flow I would like to see better cooling. Once that is figured out and actually built, move to 16V. Its funny how in the USA, 944 turbo 3.0 builds seemingly always use the 8V head even when starting with a S2. Europe seems to use the 16V head.



I believe it's because doing the 8v 8L is a lot cheaper than doing a 16v turbo.
8v head you still can use the 951 intake manifold and exhaust manifold, where on the 16v you have different flanges for the intake and exhaust.

If i had a choice between either, i'd be going 16v also. Hence this thread looking for a 16v head that could potentially fit our 2L blocks.

Every 944 or 968 turbo race car, they all end up going with a 16v engine at the end of the day.
We have a 944 time attack car in aus that started off with a 3L 8v, went to a 2.5 8v (while his 16v 3.x was getting build, its been on the works before the 3L 8v engine was built) and now has the 16v 3.x in it.

we've also got a 968 time attack car that is a straight 3L 16v and now it's a billet 4L 16v.
https://www.facebook.com/ElmerRacingDotCom/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1512747505451272

8v can get the job done, my 2.5 944 turbo is still 8v with a big cam and big valves + head work and it's capable of over 500hp but i dont push it that far as it's a street car. ~400hp at 17psi
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!!!

That was an inspirational link...

ok ok..now I have to get the intercooler inlet done....Alum torque tubes.. the finalization of the turbo mount and make a couple more engine mounts (I am pretty much happy with this last one)...and then put the headwork right behind all that. Why in that order?..because these are already 60-99.9% done. Then I can concentrate

I have to say these guys are doing everything I want to be doing. Thanks for the link...seriously cool. Mind just went into overdrive. Heading out for a long run..helps to organize my thoughts

Edit: They have high end equipment too. Caught a glimpse of the corner a machine and recognized the brand. Also can't figure out how they are handling the water jacket(s) in the head. I would already be machining if it wasn't for this issue and finding the best approach.

Edit 2: But the machine they are doing the head on is the same as mine just a different 5 axis type. Trunnion verses Swivel Head
_________________
1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it really worth all this work for a turbo engine, with modern high efficiency twinscroll turbochargers you can easily overcome the lack of volumetric flow by boosting it more. Not if you want to outdrag supras down the quarter mile but easily more power than most of us need, especially with a ported head and cam/intake/exhaustmanifold. But as an engineering exercise it rpobably is a fun challenge to take on
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 669
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:
Is it really worth all this work for a turbo engine, with modern high efficiency twinscroll turbochargers you can easily overcome the lack of volumetric flow by boosting it more. Not if you want to outdrag supras down the quarter mile but easily more power than most of us need, especially with a ported head and cam/intake/exhaustmanifold. But as an engineering exercise it rpobably is a fun challenge to take on


Oh so true...probably not worth it but for the "exercise" I just might try for the fun of it.

What I actually see happening is that I will like my welded up and dialed in head so much I will quit there but we shall see
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had a 5 axis, trust me. I would have made a head by now.
I have a small 3 axis cnc router, I've already made flanged for the head and itbs.
I know more boost is more power and the whole twin scroll scenario but ideally I would rather less boost for more power.
I will also be welding up my head and modifying the ports, probably more then most people would go. But hey if I can find a 16v head I can modify a little and bolt on for a lot better flow. I would go that route.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We looked for years, could not find anything.
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
We looked for years, could not find anything.


How did you determine the head would work or not? surely theres more heads with the right bore pitch?
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Mike9311  



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Posts: 669
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulyy wrote:
morghen wrote:
We looked for years, could not find anything.


How did you determine the head would work or not? surely theres more heads with the right bore pitch?


I will say some of the brightest on this board went after this unicorn and they all started at the bore pitch/spacing. Its a rare bird
_________________
1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 / ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
0.5 1982 931 smashed parts car
1982 931 parts car?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 WB wana-be GTR race car
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike9311 wrote:
Paulyy wrote:
morghen wrote:
We looked for years, could not find anything.


How did you determine the head would work or not? surely theres more heads with the right bore pitch?


I will say some of the brightest on this board went after this unicorn and they all started at the bore pitch/spacing. Its a rare bird


I know i went though the threads. I do browse here a lot, but not post much.
A lot on rennlist though as i've owned my 951 for many years and have build it ground up.
Anywho, I know i could potentually get the evo x head to work, but it's freeken wide!
You could drill out the threads in the block and make them a lot bigger, plug them up with a threaded rod and then offset new threads. But i would need to check the block if possible.
The width may be an issue though, you'd need some custom water and oil passages, most likely external.
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