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16v head swap? lets work it out!
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7910
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it comes to bolting another existing head on the 924 block...I would weld and thread the head not the block.
Anyway...if you change the head...why not change the block as well and be done with it
And why this obsession with 16v heads? they are overrated.
What are you trying to achieve? The 8V heads are not the best design by today's standards but they are decently capable for even higher power levels.

If you want to keep the 924 block but want a better head, buy the Mittelmotor head, they sell the 924NA and 924T CNC modified heads which guarantee a certain amount of power and torque increase. On the NA I think its 15-20hp more right off the bat with just the new head slapped on.
They run 2L engines at more than 400hp....do you need more?
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
If it comes to bolting another existing head on the 924 block...I would weld and thread the head not the block.
Anyway...if you change the head...why not change the block as well and be done with it
And why this obsession with 16v heads? they are overrated.
What are you trying to achieve? The 8V heads are not the best design by today's standards but they are decently capable for even higher power levels.

If you want to keep the 924 block but want a better head, buy the Mittelmotor head, they sell the 924NA and 924T CNC modified heads which guarantee a certain amount of power and torque increase. On the NA I think its 15-20hp more right off the bat with just the new head slapped on.
They run 2L engines at more than 400hp....do you need more?


in WTAC here, the class i want to run in i need to keep the factory block or has to be an engine from the same family of car. so any 944 968 block will still work, but i want to use the 2L.

At the current rate i'll be highly modifying the head.
I dont believe 16v heads are over rated at all. That's why all the high powered 944 turbos are now 16v 3l and in the case of the link in a previous reply,. 4L

If you look at photos of the evo x head, you cannot modify the the head and move the stud holes.

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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7910
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this head was proposed as a candidate before.
You cant expect the block to be thinned out, drilled, tapped and still hold for massive HP. You're better off prototyping a new head.

What do you consider high powered?

Do give Mittlemotor a call...they really do offer significant performance gains with their cnc modified 2L head.

If I'm not mistaken they can offer you some components for the 2L engine that will bring the power to around 400hp reliably in race applications....using the V8 CIS and their 123 ignition...pistons and head.
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WEASEL149  



Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the budget for your build?

400hp+ and 16V head means higher revs or there's no point IMO.

The clubsprint regs seem to allow just about anything so I'd bore the block well oversize and use custom forged pistons. You'll need some aftermarket rods and personally I'd move to mains studs.

If you stick with the 8V head you'll need solid valve lifters and I would alter the water flow through the head.
Play your cards right and I believe 600hp is achievable. I don't think the limit has been reached yet but you'll get the power at lower boost if you pull off the 16V swap.
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
I think this head was proposed as a candidate before.
You cant expect the block to be thinned out, drilled, tapped and still hold for massive HP. You're better off prototyping a new head.

What do you consider high powered?

Do give Mittlemotor a call...they really do offer significant performance gains with their cnc modified 2L head.

If I'm not mistaken they can offer you some components for the 2L engine that will bring the power to around 400hp reliably in race applications....using the V8 CIS and their 123 ignition...pistons and head.


I have looked at their stuff before. But hard to make out whats what on their site.

High powered? well ultimate goal 550hp. I know it's achievable.
The block will be done properly, pistons, rods, studs the lot.
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
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Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WEASEL149 wrote:
What's the budget for your build?

400hp+ and 16V head means higher revs or there's no point IMO.

The clubsprint regs seem to allow just about anything so I'd bore the block well oversize and use custom forged pistons. You'll need some aftermarket rods and personally I'd move to mains studs.

If you stick with the 8V head you'll need solid valve lifters and I would alter the water flow through the head.
Play your cards right and I believe 600hp is achievable. I don't think the limit has been reached yet but you'll get the power at lower boost if you pull off the 16V swap.


Nothing wrong with higher revs, means longer power band.

Club spring allows a lot of things really. as long as the engine is from the same family of cars and remains 4 cylinders.

I don't believe the limit has been reached yet. but yes i would rather lower boost and higher power.

Alter the water flow? what do you mean?
I will most likely be going electric water pump. and possibly going separate flow of water through the block and head.
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2305
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one wants good power then there is no alternative to 16v head.

Easiest route would be probably scan up the EVO head and replicate it from billet sans head bolt holes and use external oil+coolant lines.

Then you have standard lifters+cams etc and widely known port shape etc. No need to reinvent the wheel there.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulyy wrote:
I have looked at their stuff before. But hard to make out whats what on their site.

High powered? well ultimate goal 550hp. I know it's achievable.
The block will be done properly, pistons, rods, studs the lot.



Yea, their website is shit but if you call them its a different thing.
There was a guy making more than 400 hp, like 440 with the 931 head with mods probably, is it about the numbers or how fast you want to actually go? What about grip ?
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peep, not cost effective, but yes i do agree.


morghen wrote:
Paulyy wrote:
I have looked at their stuff before. But hard to make out whats what on their site.

High powered? well ultimate goal 550hp. I know it's achievable.
The block will be done properly, pistons, rods, studs the lot.



Yea, their website is shit but if you call them its a different thing.
There was a guy making more than 400 hp, like 440 with the 931 head with mods probably, is it about the numbers or how fast you want to actually go? What about grip ?


Grip, 295 30 r18 front and rear with ad08r tyres (for rules) is what im going for. I've got the flares, need some mods for the front to fit but i've done measurements and it'll work. (Project has been on hold for a few months as my 944 turbo needed some work done to it but that's about to change next week finally)
Power number isn't the real goal. i just want to achieve as much as possible with a good powerband. The number is something to work for when choosing turbo ect.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so what stops you from maxing out the 8V head?
In thea meantime maybe you can help out the community with some useful information about improving the factory head.

Check this out: This guy wasn't so far off your hp goal lets say.
And that's an old video mind you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
Ok, so what stops you from maxing out the 8V head?
In thea meantime maybe you can help out the community with some useful information about improving the factory head.

Check this out: This guy wasn't so far off your hp goal lets say.
And that's an old video mind you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs


I've seen that video quite a few times. And i'll be using the same turbo. It's an EFR7670. 650hp turbo. I feel it's a good enough size for a 2L. You could say it's a little big, but with RPM it should be fine. And if i increase the displacement it'll be better.

Nothing is stopping me from maxing out the 924 head. Like i said though, if i can find a better solution to the issue, i'll go with it, even if that means another head.
When i get to the stage of modding the head, i'll happy share. At this stage it's just research on top of research. especially while the 951 is on the hoist.

I'll have to start a new thread for it though (not yet) as photobucket decided to screw up everything with hosting photos.

But next i'll be looking at how much more displacement i can go with the block.
I know an 88mm bore and a 90.75mm stroke will do 2.2L
Or do a 88.9 or 89mm bore and go 2.1L with the stock crank.
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951 - 400whp.


Last edited by Paulyy on Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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v2rocket_aka944  



Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...could you find an Audi 20V head and chop off a cylinder?
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

v2rocket_aka944 wrote:
...could you find an Audi 20V head and chop off a cylinder?


LOL. and chop off the end of the cams. Weld a plate at the end? should be ok right?
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v2rocket_aka944  



Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL wasn't thinking as far as cams yet, just heads...


im sure a chopped-off 5 cyl cam would work, you'd just have a brief period of no power every 720 degrees from the "ghost cylinder"
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Mike9311  



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

v2rocket_aka944 wrote:

im sure a chopped-off 5 cyl cam would work, you'd just have a brief period of no power every 720 degrees from the "ghost cylinder"


This was funny ...I think you are cutting of that cylinder and therefore that section of cam too
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