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Newbie wants MORE POWER
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mikeycrum14  



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Newbie wants MORE POWER Reply with quote

Looking to upgrade my NA 924. Five speed trans with stage 3 clutch (a previous owner thought it was a good idea). any ideas? looking for upgrades that are not to complicated or expensive for a amateur.
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1981 924 - Alpine White
First car!
Fresh tune up, stage 3 racing clutch, stock otherwise, 5 speed trans. - SOLD
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15502
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stickied for your convenience at the top of this sub-forum:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=25795

Welcome aboard.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1556
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nitrous..

Everything else is going to be little gain or massive money/time/labor..

If you want the car to be a project and work on it all the time, spend a lot of money, then you can think about N/A performance or adding a trubo but you will need to learn a lot lot first to understand what you are doing..

If you actually want to drive the car but think "Hey, it would be nice to have another +50HP when I push that gas button all the way down", then maybe consider nitrous..

Pretty solid project path too..

Step 1: Get the car operating in premium mechanical condition..
Step 2: Add nitrous..

If you back out, or get overwhelmed half way through atleast you will have a car that is closer to premium operating condition, rather than a pile of parts from embarking on a massive project..

N/A performance is a bit of a dead end with these heads.. 150HP will cost you like $1k..
Turbo would be very expencive and massivly complex, not a project for a "first car" guy I'd say..

Nitrous, $500-$700 probably, and another couple hundred might even get a shop to do it for you, and you could remove the kit from the car if you wanted and put it on another car, or sell it without loosing too much on it..
You would be able to choose your currently acceptable level of power/risk ratio and change your nitrous from anywhere like safe +20 hp through to the moon and turn it up as much as you want once you are ready to risk blowing an engine..

You are probably already on step 1 now..

This shop near you http://performanceunlimited.com/
May be able to help you out..

Just something to think about..
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nickthompson  



Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 854
Location: Central Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nitrous on a Sportscar is stupid and pointless. On top of that it's like slamming you engine with a sledge hammer everytime you use it. If you build a forged bottom end big block nitrous is great. Otherwise leave it alone.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15502
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't need to do Nitrous and you don't need to spend massive amounts of money.

First, you need to read the thread I linked to.

I resell an Edelweiss "hot street" cam profile that according to their dyno tests adds 20BHP to an otherwise stock NA motor. (2 currently in stock and four on the way from Germany as we speak).

A .027" Cometic head gasket will get you to Euro-spec power all by itself. Without doing anything else, the Cometic plus the Edelweiss cam should be good for 130BHP, maybe approaching 140BHP. For $800 you get a 15%-20% boost in BHP.

The thing that will kill you, budget wise, is all of the deferred maintenance and "while you're in there" stuff. A full top end rebuild + full tune up is easily in the $400 range. New injectors? add another $250. Need new fuel pump? There's another buck-fiddy.

These cars aren't expensive (comparatively) but they ain't cheap either.

Go read the performance upgrades thread and figure out what you're targets are.
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15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1734
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideola is spot on, thats the way for the easiest gains and probably much more fun engine characteristics.

What I would do would be to buy a spare head cheaply, do some light porting, rebuild with fresh valve guide seals, maybe replace guides themself if they are worn. Then add the cam and you will have a complete fresh head to put on the engine, less surprises when you disassemble the engine for the head gasket change, just a swap of heads. You will learn alot on the way aswell, its pretty straight forward if you take the time to do the research first.
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Noahs944  



Joined: 08 Dec 2015
Posts: 714
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickthompson wrote:
Nitrous on a Sportscar is stupid and pointless. On top of that it's like slamming you engine with a sledge hammer everytime you use it. If you build a forged bottom end big block nitrous is great. Otherwise leave it alone.


Classic Nitrous Mis-representation.
That's like saying Turbo does that same thing.
It's all about the delivery system (ie. how much, how long...)
Heck you can set up a progressive system if you like.

Nitrous is the easiest and biggest power gain for the least amount of work. Just keep it to a 35 hp shot... maybe the 50 shot.

Looks like a kit is posted on the buy & sale of this forum.
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Shurick  



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 486
Location: Russia, Moscow.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
A .027" Cometic head gasket will get you to Euro-spec power all by itself.

IIRC Euro-spec 924 had not only higher compression, but also different ignition curve.
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WBR, Shurick
'79 931 -- intercooled K26-3060-6.10 turbo @ 1.2 bar, EFI+EDIS, 951S brakes, stripped interior, 951 look.
'86 924S -- R.I.P.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15502
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shurick wrote:
ideola wrote:
A .027" Cometic head gasket will get you to Euro-spec power all by itself.

IIRC Euro-spec 924 had not only higher compression, but also different ignition curve.


The curve doesn't affect top line power as much as how and when you get there. But yes, Euro dizzy has better curve for better low-end torque where these cars need it.
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15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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mikeycrum14  



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the car already has a full tuneup done. coil, rotors, wires, and maybe even injectors, water pump, all the way around plugs. the previous owner said to probably port and polish and then get a better cam. thoughts?
_________________
1981 924 - Alpine White
First car!
Fresh tune up, stage 3 racing clutch, stock otherwise, 5 speed trans. - SOLD
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mikeycrum14  



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i buy a new head to rebuild and add a new cam as suggested, full top end, the whole shebang, where to buy Head?
_________________
1981 924 - Alpine White
First car!
Fresh tune up, stage 3 racing clutch, stock otherwise, 5 speed trans. - SOLD
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15502
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about port and polish unless you're willing to take it to somebody who really knows what they're doing.

Pick up a used head from eBay or any of the numerous guys on craigslist who are parting cars. Stay away from the early heads if at all possible (77-78 ).

Head work is not cheap. My guy in Delevan WI has reasonable rates, but even then, a fully re-done head (valves, guides, re-worked seats, skim cut, and mild port and polish) is a $2K proposition. If you can get it cheaper than that, you're either lucky or the technician is a hack.

One of the big issues with our heads is that the valve guides are a unique size and NOBODY has the correct tooling to work on them. Only places that have specifically done a 924 2.0L head before will have the right tooling. My guy in Delevan had to make his before he could work on my head. Same thing happened to me in Detroit, where there's an engine builder on every corner.

One thing you'll get into is that the valves will almost certainly have slop in them, so it would be foolish to go to the effort of putting a replacement old head on a new build with valve guides and stems that are beyond the wear limit. This is what I meant by the "while you're in there" problem.

If you add the cost of new valve train + labor, your easily into thousands of dollars. At that point, for another $300 you could have the big valve kit. Combined with hot cam and CR increase from thin Cometic gasket, NOW your talking some noticeable performance improvement.

Next stage, add an MSDS header.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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mikeycrum14  



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

should I just go for a big valve kit first then? I know a couple head work guys. or just replace all of the valves with stock and then go with a hot cam and a cometic gasket
_________________
1981 924 - Alpine White
First car!
Fresh tune up, stage 3 racing clutch, stock otherwise, 5 speed trans. - SOLD
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15502
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're going to do a complete head rebuild, it's only $300 more to do the big valve head. As I always say, Go Big or Go Home.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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mikeycrum14  



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 112
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so having a complete head rebuild... what kind of money are we talkin?
_________________
1981 924 - Alpine White
First car!
Fresh tune up, stage 3 racing clutch, stock otherwise, 5 speed trans. - SOLD
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