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KKK K3T Hybrid Turbo
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WEASEL149  



Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 595
Location: UK, Sheffield

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:20 am    Post subject: KKK K3T Hybrid Turbo Reply with quote

Anyone heard of the K3T turbo?

Apparently it's a hybrid K26/K27 turbo that was available direct from KKK and used extensively on tuned Japanese cars by the likes of Sard and Blitz.
It was available with a 6.11 hotside good for 330hp and a 8.11 good for 450hp, according to KKK themselves.

Not sure on the compressor wheel but the number on the plate read K3T 3070MGA, so I'd assume it was close to the 3072 used by the 964 turbo.

The compressor had a 3 inch inlet and 2 inch outlet.

Coldside housing was 5327 1015065 and hotside was 5326 1016391.

Just wondered if anybody knew anything else about these...
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

never heard about this..but 3 inch inlet...thats a monster
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just get Holset HY35 (9 cm2 turbine housing, good for 400 hp) or HX35 (12 cm2 divided housing, good for 450 hp).
These turbos are much cheaper, readily available and have excellent characteristics.

If you want maximum spoolup, but give up some power (max 350 hp), opt for HX30 but these are much harder to come by.
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gegge  



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one

Didnīt know it was a K3T since the plate was missing. It has got the same coldside but with a 931 #8 (GTS) hotside instead of the regular K26. A missmatch if you ask me - the compressor(+450hp) is way too big for the turbine(350hp).

Confirm the 70mm inlet and 52/76mm compressorwheel.

The newer Blitz K3-450R has a 55/76mm compressor and same old K26 turbine. The K3-330R has a 47/66mm, sama as Audi RS2 (2672). The K5C-470R has the same compressor as K3-450R but a proper K27 76/64mm turbine instead and a much larger housing (up to #11).
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924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
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Last edited by gegge on Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raceboy  



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit of mismatch but this is acceptable on smaller displacement and lesser flow engines like 931 is (i.e. requires higher boost for same power as good flowing engine).
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have one of those on my car at the moment, i cant wait to drive it !

K27 7x/5x mm inlet and compressor wheel
K26 (931S1) hot side and wheel
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WEASEL149  



Joined: 19 Aug 2005
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Location: UK, Sheffield

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gegge wrote:
I have one

Didnīt know it was a K3T since the plate was missing. It has got the same coldside but with a 931 #8 (GTS) hotside instead of the regular K26. A missmatch if you ask me - the compressor(+450hp) is way too big for the turbine(350hp).

Confirm the 70mm inlet and 52/76mm compressorwheel.

The newer Blitz K3-450R has a 55/76mm compressor and same old K26 turbine. The K3-330R has a 47/66mm, sama as Audi RS2 (2672). The K5C-470R has the same compressor as K3-450R but a proper K27 76/64mm turbine instead and a much larger housing (up to #11).


I should be getting a rebuilt one shortly if all goes to plan.
Yes, the compressor is 70mm inlet, the wheel is 52/76mm.
I can't find a compressor map for it, but have been told it's sweetspot is 1.3bar. The guy I'm hopefully getting it from made 300hp from 1.9L at 11psi.

Raceboy wrote:
A bit of mismatch but this is acceptable on smaller displacement and lesser flow engines like 931 is (i.e. requires higher boost for same power as good flowing engine).

I was mainly worried about surge more than anything else. Do you think surge will be a problem with this turbo?
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gegge  



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I donīt think surge is a problem, maybe if you floor it from 2000rpm in 5th.


Check the compressormap in this example:

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=35596

No problems with the 7064 but surge with 7670, the difference is the size of the inducer.

The 924 GTR (LeMans) used a K27-2970U 16.11 with similar compressor had a HUGE turbinehousing.

By the way, the slightly larger 3072 frpm 964 turbo:

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WEASEL149  



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, this is the beast I acquired and hope to fit this winter
Elusive turbo, but just to prove it actually exists...






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ideola  



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, very cool!!!
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Fasteddie313  



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.trumotorsports.com/sard/sard-turbocharger/g-54547.aspx

https://www.sard.co.jp/after_eng/products/turbo/turbo/turbo.html#コンプレッサーカバーアタッチメント

It looks like pretty much what this "SARD" does, is a distributor for KKK and pretty much just lets you mix and match kkk turbines to compressors for whatever you want to do..

They are offering turbines of k24 k26 k27 and k28
Matched to compressors..

2460G - bit smaller than the early row compressor 2470
2664GGA - 931 us s1
2667GGA - 951 s1 compressor
2670GGA - 951 s2 250hp compressor
3070MGA - weasel's turbo of this thread
3072GGE - the "k27" "7200" 911 964 turbo turbocharger upgrade for all previous 911 turbo, dans UWB compressor

And then they get bigger yet..
3270GXA
3464HHB
3472HHB
3476HHB

and they offer exhaust housings for your choice of turbine and choice of AR..

BTW I have figured out these KKK compressor part numbers, such as 2664 or 3072

first 2 numbers = the max OD of the compressor wheel in inches, believe it or not, inches..
The 2nd 2 numbers of the compressor is the side of the inducer/inlet as a percentage of the max diamiter.

So a 2664 is a 2.6" wheel and the inlet/inducer is 64% of the wheel diameter = 1.664
2664 wheel = 2.6" exducer and 1.664" inducer
3072 = 3" wheel with 2.16" inducer


The turbo pictured in this thread is listed for $1652.25
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peterld  



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice find Mr. Eddie!
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder if they offer compressor maps as well.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the 3072 compressor map..
The k27 compressor from the 964 that all the 911 and 951 guys want..
http://www.futurez.fi/media/Esitteita/BorgWarners.pdf

The same as the ancient 3072 map above but this one is from borgwarner 2014 and is in nice lbs/min for easiness..
3072 = 3" wheel with 2.16" inducer

Morghen's k27 is 3257
3.2" wheel and 1.824 inducer

Bigger exducer, smaller inducer, I'd think that would move the map to the left and up, less flow, more compression?

By my plots on this 3072 map..
Using a generic engine flow calculator http://www.boosttown.com/forced_induction/air_amount_calculator.php, VE set at 85%, these lines represent what that spits out for 1Bar, 1.5Bar, and 2Bars from 3000 to 6000RPM for 2kcc 2.0 engine..


So what does this mean? Is it too big? What compressor paramiters as far as inducer and exducer size, "trim" would move the map left and up? Or is that good?

Or maybe we can pull off a little better than 85% VE with our engines, which moves the lines to the right? Or rev it past 6000 rpm and the lines get more efficient moving to the right.. IDK...

Here's revs to 7k in yellow.. That makes it look pretty darn good if my plotting methos is anywhere near close who knows...



I find this information...
"""""""""""""""
For compressors, Garret and KKK use a Trim number. Garrett's trim number is a ratio of the area of the top of the compressor wheel to the bottom of the compressor wheel. For instance: When garret says a 50 trim, they mean the area of the inlet is 50% of the area of the base. take a T04E 50 trim wheel. The base diameter of the wheel is 76.2mm(3"). That makes an area of 7.06 sq. inches. The top area is 50% of that or 3.53 sq. in. working backwards gives up a top inlet diameter of 2.12"

"KKKtrim" is a bit different. They specify compressors by numbers like 2760 or 3060. The first two numbers is the base diameter in decimal inches. So a 27## has a 2.7" base wheel. A 30## is a 3" base wheel. The 2nd pair of numbers is the ratio of the diameters (not the areas). So a 2760 has a base diameter of 2.7" and a top inlet diameter of 1.62" likewise a 2672 (rs2) has a base diameter of 2.6" and a top inlet diameter of 1.872" In Garret speak, the RS2 would be a 51.8 trim compressor wheel with a 66mm base diameter. The RS2 comp has a 2.7" compressor wheel (71.12mm) with a top diameter of 1.872". This is a KKKtrim 2770 wheel. Garret Trim is 48.

What use is all this? Say you want a Garrett wheel that will be similar to a RS2 comp's compressor characteristics. Look for a Garret 12 blade compressor wheel with a base diameter of 71mm and a trim around 50.
The original GT35 has a 71mm wheel and a 50 trim. And lo and behold! the map is very similar to an RS2 in terms of where it falls with regards to PR/and flow. The Knee of the map is even similar in shape to the RS2. You'll find these map similarities exist when comparing a K24 map to a similarly sized Garrett compressor.
""""""""""""""""""""""

So now that we understand how kkk "trim" is labeled as compared to garrett "trim" maybe we could find the garrett wheel that most closely matches our kkk wheel in question and assume the map of the garrett wheel is similar?
Use the corresponding sized wheel garrett compressor map to choose kkk compressors?

One thing I do notice is that all of those "performance" kkk compressors offered by sard are in edxucer to inducer ratios of 64%-76% so maybe that is the sweet spot for "performance"

I better do some more learnin about how "trim" works and what effects it has..

BTW here is a 3072, 964, k27, (map above), on ebay currently for $165 that I think will go over my budget anyway so if anyone wants one have at it..
You could likely resell the rest of it after you pull the compressor off..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351963470672?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:

Morghen's k27 is 3257
3.2" wheel and 1.824 inducer

Bigger exducer, smaller inducer, I'd think that would move the map to the left and up, less flow, more compression?


Where did you get those values from?
This turbo has indeed a smaller inducer(similar to the bigger K26s) but a large exducer.
It seems to me its an early spool K27 with of course limited flow but a big leverage to compress.

I've seen this general rule in rally cars where they have big turbochargers but they use inducer restrictors. They get massive amounts of torque but keep the HP low.

EDIT: never mind, I only read your whole post after I opened my mouth and I just remembered I read this trim convention thing some time ago
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