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Who has installed a lager turbo??
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen that video and the thread! Id love to see it in action on the road with thay setup
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3158
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive got a gt28rs, in front of the engine.
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7785
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flosho wrote:
Ive got a gt28rs, in front of the engine.


you mean on the ground in front of the car?
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i've been doing a lot of thinking, looking and research and this is what i've came up with.


Turbo: Borg Warner EFR 7163 Twin scroll internal wastegate. Reason for this turbo and not a 7670 is that for the amount of power i'll lose with a smaller turbo, I'll gain a lot more under the curve. I.e response time. Means staying in the same gear for longer periods of time.
Headers: Equal length, split pulse/twin scroll. If i'm going to squeeze as much power reliably, Im going to do it properly.


Option 1 - I was going to reverse the head (like Rod did in the RP968). This would have made the exhaust/turbo easy. It would make the intake a little tricky, but it was possible. The problem is with this though, It offsets the head about 10mm. Everything aligns up. Modding the water and oil ports isn't to difficult and adding steam vents in the head ect. That's all the easy parts. The hard part would be modifying the cam to take the cam gear on the other side and making sure it doesn't leak. Since i won't be using the distributor i can use that extension to make fit with a cam gear.

Option 2 - Tilting the engine to make more room for the turbo keeping it on the same side as the headers. This means modifying the TT and new engine mounts (which will be made regardless) and probably need to mod the oil pan also.

Option 3 - Face the facts and move the turbo to the front of the engine. 3 reasons i don't want to do this. 1, more weight at the front. 2, i want to do ducting from the radiator+intercooler to the bonnet. 3, gets in the way of easy change of any belt if need be.

Option 4 - Turbo on other side of motor like a 944 turbo. This will require some modification to the sump, some custom turbo mounts. I have no real issue with this method.


At this rate Option 4 would be the better way. I'll just need to see where i need to modify the sump for the crossover.
Equal length long tube headers aren't a bad thing.

Your thoughts?
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 11
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulyy wrote:

Turbo: Borg Warner EFR 7163 Twin scroll internal wastegate. Reason for this turbo and not a 7670 is that for the amount of power i'll lose with a smaller turbo, I'll gain a lot more under the curve. I.e response time. Means staying in the same gear for longer periods of time.
Headers: Equal length, split pulse/twin scroll. If i'm going to squeeze as much power reliably, Im going to do it properly.


You're going to love the EFR. When I first took mine out of the box I just sat and stared at it with a tear in my eye. They are marvels of engineering.

What are you looking at for power? The 6258 that I have is good up to 450hp easily and spools like mad. I have full boost by 3300rpm if not before. Not the best for freeway cruising, but holy hell does it kick on the streets. Again only issue with the 6258 is the internal waste gate isn't that big and can lead to over boost issues on a 2L at higher revs depending on what boost levels you are running. Twin scroll for sure gives you better low end performance so the larger turbo and longer header tubes kind of balance the size out.

Just an FYI for anyone in general, there is no way you will be able to fit the 7163 or 7670 in the stock location with the IWG but if you go EWG you should be fine. Both of those models have a larger housing then the 6258 and I already had clearance issues:


Paulyy wrote:


Option 1 - I was going to reverse the head (like Rod did in the RP968). This would have made the exhaust/turbo easy. It would make the intake a little tricky, but it was possible. The problem is with this though, It offsets the head about 10mm. Everything aligns up. Modding the water and oil ports isn't to difficult and adding steam vents in the head ect. That's all the easy parts. The hard part would be modifying the cam to take the cam gear on the other side and making sure it doesn't leak. Since i won't be using the distributor i can use that extension to make fit with a cam gear.


Has anyone actually reversed a head like that before on a 931? I honestly don't know. If it's even possible that would be one way to do it but I personally think that it would be way more hassle than its worth.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 2 - Tilting the engine to make more room for the turbo keeping it on the same side as the headers. This means modifying the TT and new engine mounts (which will be made regardless) and probably need to mod the oil pan also.


There's not much room between the oil pan and the cross-member so if you rotate that would probably be the first thing to hit. Not to mention everything would be 'off'.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 3 - Face the facts and move the turbo to the front of the engine. 3 reasons i don't want to do this. 1, more weight at the front. 2, i want to do ducting from the radiator+intercooler to the bonnet. 3, gets in the way of easy change of any belt if need be.


Definitely doable and probably the easiest way to pull it off but yes it does have its limitations.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 4 - Turbo on other side of motor like a 944 turbo. This will require some modification to the sump, some custom turbo mounts. I have no real issue with this method.


This is my personal favorite option. The only reason I didn't do it on my car was the fact I wanted to keep the AC (which still works btw). This gives you the best options for getting equal length manifold and getting the twin scroll to play nice as well as well as the easiest to work on and get the engine in and out of the car.

Paulyy wrote:

Equal length long tube headers aren't a bad thing.


In an NA car, having equal length tuned headers helps with the scavenging effect and makes it equal for all cylinders therefore giving you a smoother engine and better performance because the pulses can actually aid each other. In a turbo car, there is always pressure between the exhaust valves and turbine and that pressure actually does the work of spinning the turbine. Making them equal length only preserves the individual pulses coming from the individual cylinders and spaces them evenly which for sure gives you a benefit in turbo spooling. Savaging with constant back pressure is pretty much naught though.

In my opinion for a turbo car, you want the primary runners as short as possible to preserve heat as well as boost response. In order to truly get max performance from an equal length system, you would have to tune them to a specific RPM range that you want the bonus performance on, usually between max torque and max hp. From what I remember with 1.5" diameter primaries they would need to be about 16 inches, but your going to lose a ton of heat and therefore pressure with runners that long. Sure most of the new F1 cars have equal length headers but they also have bazillions to spend on R&D to make them perfect. In 2014 MB actually ran with a log manifold, worked out quite well for them I'd say.

By no means am I saying don't do it. If you think you can pull it off go for it. I spent months and months researching for my project and chose not to due to space constraints and lack of benefit. I'll get more power by upping the boost 1psi then by making the manifold equal length.
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1675
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's not a full on race car i would keep out of the 951 installation, its in general the worst way of doing a turbo manifold. Keep the manifold volume as low as possible and twinscroll, pulse amplitude is the key.

Joakim.S got a efr 7670 in std position, but that was alot of work.
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 11
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how Joakim.S pulled that off and I've seen the photos. I spent hours just getting mine to fit without hitting anything and its smaller!

He is a god amongst us mere mortals.
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1675
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lildude4life wrote:
I don't know how Joakim.S pulled that off and I've seen the photos. I spent hours just getting mine to fit without hitting anything and its smaller!

He is a god amongst us mere mortals.


I dont remember exactly, but it do include a different engine mount, cutting and rewelding the frame and lots of other stuff. Lots of patience is the key i guess
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 650
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and before Joakim there was Peter. I realize not the same thing as far as turbo but an epic and well thought out build. The build that has driven me personally crazy since I saw it. I have never seen a 924 cam lobe like his since. The resolution dates these pics for sure










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Joakim  



Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 23
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:
lildude4life wrote:
I don't know how Joakim.S pulled that off and I've seen the photos. I spent hours just getting mine to fit without hitting anything and its smaller!

He is a god amongst us mere mortals.


I dont remember exactly, but it do include a different engine mount, cutting and rewelding the frame and lots of other stuff. Lots of patience is the key i guess

I haven't cut in the body just Ó little bit in the crossmember where steering gear is attached and tilted up the engine.
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Joakim  



Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 23
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:
lildude4life wrote:
I don't know how Joakim.S pulled that off and I've seen the photos. I spent hours just getting mine to fit without hitting anything and its smaller!

He is a god amongst us mere mortals.


I dont remember exactly, but it do include a different engine mount, cutting and rewelding the frame and lots of other stuff. Lots of patience is the key i guess

I haven't cut in the body just Ó little bit in the crossmember where steering gear is attached and tilted up the engine.
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Lau Christophersen  



Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 97
Location: Denmark/Copenhagen

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My turbo setup is in 951 style... the car is not running yet so I do not know how it works.

Manifold before wrap:



Manifold installed and wrapped:



3" Downpipe - not much space, had to modify the engine mount a bit with the anglegrinder and welt in a small reinforcement later


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-76 924 (PARTS)
-77 924 (PARTS)
-77 924 converted to 924S
-79 924 Turbo Carrera GT look (PARTS).
-79 924 Turbo with VEMS and 951S suspension and brakes
-81 928S manuel +30 cm widebody kit
-82 924 (SOLD)
-83 928S auto


Last edited by Lau Christophersen on Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:57 am; edited 6 times in total
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Paulyy  



Joined: 05 May 2014
Posts: 87
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lildude4life wrote:
Paulyy wrote:

Turbo: Borg Warner EFR 7163 Twin scroll internal wastegate. Reason for this turbo and not a 7670 is that for the amount of power i'll lose with a smaller turbo, I'll gain a lot more under the curve. I.e response time. Means staying in the same gear for longer periods of time.
Headers: Equal length, split pulse/twin scroll. If i'm going to squeeze as much power reliably, Im going to do it properly.


You're going to love the EFR. When I first took mine out of the box I just sat and stared at it with a tear in my eye. They are marvels of engineering.

What are you looking at for power? The 6258 that I have is good up to 450hp easily and spools like mad. I have full boost by 3300rpm if not before. Not the best for freeway cruising, but holy hell does it kick on the streets. Again only issue with the 6258 is the internal waste gate isn't that big and can lead to over boost issues on a 2L at higher revs depending on what boost levels you are running. Twin scroll for sure gives you better low end performance so the larger turbo and longer header tubes kind of balance the size out.

Just an FYI for anyone in general, there is no way you will be able to fit the 7163 or 7670 in the stock location with the IWG but if you go EWG you should be fine. Both of those models have a larger housing then the 6258 and I already had clearance issues:


Paulyy wrote:


Option 1 - I was going to reverse the head (like Rod did in the RP968). This would have made the exhaust/turbo easy. It would make the intake a little tricky, but it was possible. The problem is with this though, It offsets the head about 10mm. Everything aligns up. Modding the water and oil ports isn't to difficult and adding steam vents in the head ect. That's all the easy parts. The hard part would be modifying the cam to take the cam gear on the other side and making sure it doesn't leak. Since i won't be using the distributor i can use that extension to make fit with a cam gear.


Has anyone actually reversed a head like that before on a 931? I honestly don't know. If it's even possible that would be one way to do it but I personally think that it would be way more hassle than its worth.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 2 - Tilting the engine to make more room for the turbo keeping it on the same side as the headers. This means modifying the TT and new engine mounts (which will be made regardless) and probably need to mod the oil pan also.


There's not much room between the oil pan and the cross-member so if you rotate that would probably be the first thing to hit. Not to mention everything would be 'off'.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 3 - Face the facts and move the turbo to the front of the engine. 3 reasons i don't want to do this. 1, more weight at the front. 2, i want to do ducting from the radiator+intercooler to the bonnet. 3, gets in the way of easy change of any belt if need be.


Definitely doable and probably the easiest way to pull it off but yes it does have its limitations.

Paulyy wrote:

Option 4 - Turbo on other side of motor like a 944 turbo. This will require some modification to the sump, some custom turbo mounts. I have no real issue with this method.


This is my personal favorite option. The only reason I didn't do it on my car was the fact I wanted to keep the AC (which still works btw). This gives you the best options for getting equal length manifold and getting the twin scroll to play nice as well as well as the easiest to work on and get the engine in and out of the car.

Paulyy wrote:

Equal length long tube headers aren't a bad thing.


In an NA car, having equal length tuned headers helps with the scavenging effect and makes it equal for all cylinders therefore giving you a smoother engine and better performance because the pulses can actually aid each other. In a turbo car, there is always pressure between the exhaust valves and turbine and that pressure actually does the work of spinning the turbine. Making them equal length only preserves the individual pulses coming from the individual cylinders and spaces them evenly which for sure gives you a benefit in turbo spooling. Savaging with constant back pressure is pretty much naught though.

In my opinion for a turbo car, you want the primary runners as short as possible to preserve heat as well as boost response. In order to truly get max performance from an equal length system, you would have to tune them to a specific RPM range that you want the bonus performance on, usually between max torque and max hp. From what I remember with 1.5" diameter primaries they would need to be about 16 inches, but your going to lose a ton of heat and therefore pressure with runners that long. Sure most of the new F1 cars have equal length headers but they also have bazillions to spend on R&D to make them perfect. In 2014 MB actually ran with a log manifold, worked out quite well for them I'd say.

By no means am I saying don't do it. If you think you can pull it off go for it. I spent months and months researching for my project and chose not to due to space constraints and lack of benefit. I'll get more power by upping the boost 1psi then by making the manifold equal length.


No one has done it to a 924 head. But only to a 968 block. It's more difficult on the 924 because of the single cam. If it was a twin cam, it'll be much easier as you can just flip the camshaft.


Long tube turbo heads are good in many ways. Allows the engine to run slightly cooler, less detonation so you can put more timing into it.

Mazda have been using long tube headers on their sky technology engines
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Images/Long%20vs%20short%20tube%20header%20Mazda%20Sky%20Long%20Tube%20Exhaust%20Manifold%20Header.png

I'll need to get the engine into the car and see how i'll rout the exhaust before i start buying stuff.

CÚdric: It's going to be a time attack car. But in a "street/club sprint" class.

lildude4life: Aiming for minimum 400whp. 450 will be nice and 500 i think will be pushing the turbos limits.
If i want to go past 500hp, I'll probably need to go 2.2L stroke and a 7670
the 6258 seems like a good street turbo - i like your install.

Lau Christophersen: nice install. Once i get the engine into the car for mock up, i'll see how i'm going to do it. I'm thinking of notching the oil pan to make the exhaust go straight under. or possibly around the front.
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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3158
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part out coming soon but here it was



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