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seized engine

 
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: seized engine Reply with quote

Recently acquired '87.
"Ran when parked" (I believed the guy, still do but doubt is growing.....)
Wouldn't turn over.
Pulled starter, tests "okay"
Breaker bar on crank, no movement. (even after I remembered to put in neutral
Pulled belts covers, belts look good to me.
I don't know what proper tension should be. I would think if it slipped and smashed valves there would be some evidence on the belt, and there could be, under the crank pulley, the only place I can't really see well.
Plugs out.
Oil looks clean.
So where to start? (no pun intended)
I shot some penetrating oil into the cylinders, not a ton, not enough if it's rust in bores.
I could really dose the cylinders with..(I'm not sure what's best to use) and wait and see.
I could start pulling the head off.
I could part it out.




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87 924S project, '83 944 engine,
my son's first car.
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11356
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Father/son project, right? Pull the motor and put it on a stand!

Best way to learn the 2.5 well.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly an option if comes to that. Might try a rolling bump, can't really hurt anymore if the valves are trashed, right?

Or, and this might be more intelligent, start in for normal belt replacement and assess things as we go pulling head if needed down the road.
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87 924S project, '83 944 engine,
my son's first car.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

poked around a tad more, pulled the dizzy and the cam gear cover, belt looks good up there too, can move the cam until the belt stops it, seems like the crank is holding up the works and not because the pistons are smashed into valves, but I don't know of course.
I ordered a cheap borescope for fun, will poke it round in the bores. No rush.
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87 924S project, '83 944 engine,
my son's first car.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't this starter have a bushing in the nose?
Maybe a chunk of it is lodged in the flywheel causing my seized engine condition? Or not.....
video:
http://vid1148.photobucket.com/albums/o578/javandyke1/924s/IMG_0440_zpsps8qsi9q.mp4



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edredas  



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 855
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the cam is moving then that might be good news! Perhaps there is just something lodged in the flywheel... although its not exactly an easy job to get in there.

As for your starter, it appears your missing the retainer on the bendix side of the tip. From what I can tell, that is what holds it in place. The tips of my starters look like yours, only yours is barreled out.



I hope that helps!
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

did a little scoping, managed to feed the borescope into the bell housing, pretty interesting but inconclusive, no "smoking gun". Went in through the upper passenger side opening, and a little through the timing mark inspection hole from the top, camera doesn't fit too deep in there though. The camera head has a tendency to get stuck too.
Can't see anything in the bores, am going to try that again on Tuesday with yet another scope. But I highly doubt it's valves because all the pistons seem to be about mid stroke as I probe them from the spark plug holes with a stick.
I will continue probing.
What about an internal bearing failure? I suppose if a rod let loose and got wedged it'd lock things up. I tried to scope the oil pain through the drain hole but couldn't make out anything. Hopefully the next scope reveals more.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we were dinking around with it, scoping out the flywheel and oil pan and bores and I grabbed the breaker bar on the crank and my son watched the flywheel. It moved a fraction, back and forth about 6 times and bam, she was free!
So it's not siezed anymore, spun around many times and no drama.
Starting getting ready to light her off, fresh oil, spent a LONG time trying to clear the ATF/acetone out of the bores. Had to try and fire it off; pops and wants to go but didn't quite do it and didn't sound all that great trying to so prudence won out and we called it an evening.
Not saying we've got a runner quite yet but we're a lot closer than we were 6 hours ago!
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Paul  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9348
Location: Southeast Wisconsin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bores and pistons can't rust, but rings can corrode and by doing so glue themselves to the bores. Hopefully no rings broke when you broke them loose.
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TJC  



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 600
Location: NW Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Bores and pistons can't rust, but rings can corrode and by doing so glue themselves to the bores. Hopefully no rings broke when you broke them loose.


Yep! I'd be real careful from here on out and be more inclined to make sure nothing is scoring the cylinders before going much further.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made a bushing for the starter nose and it's spinning the engine okay. With no plugs in in turns over nice, with plugs it make a a bit of disconcerting thud during cranking.
The speed and reference sensor ohm out okay.
I used one off my many LED cluster wedge bulbs with some wires soldered on as long leads, confirmed good pulses to injectors. Pulled injectors (took all of 5 minutes, WAY easier in that regard to our engines).
They look terrible and thats just the outside. Hunks of crud all over the tips, both ends, just nasty. I think I will send them off for cleaning, witchhunter if I can't find a local shop. I should go after the cold start one but it's pretty buried in there.
So this may be the smoking gun.
I did use a "good" scope to see what I could see of the bores, they look okay but I can't really see them entirely just too hard to manipulate the camera and focus it down there. The piston tops look pretty terrible, carbon I suspect, disturbed by the ATF/acetone, can't do much about that I guess besides let it all burn off.
We're hopeful. I don't like my low compression numbers on 1 and 2 but we'll see. Maybe just sticky rings? Could be head gasket between 1 and 2.
So, she is seized no more and we're just working on getting fire.
We did confirm the cam and crank are timed to each other, the inspection camera was awesome for finding the timing mark on the flywheel, no way I could have seen that with the naked eye.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update.
We had it running pretty well until an engine fire set us back. Still sure what was seized, piston in bore I suspect but at the moment, with the engine out and clutch apart I see some serious damage on the flywheel bolts so maybe it was something hung up in there.
Picture isn't so great but you can see gouges in each of the bolt heads.

The gouges are not lined up so I'd guess the flywheel was off since it happened (and thus bolts retightened to different line up) The release bearing is a SACHS so that was replaced once at least.
I've got the clutch disc relined and am going to clean up the PP and flywheel surface a little and call it good.
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Fifty50Plus  



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1013
Location: Washington DC area

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that the gouges in the flywheel bolts are from and air chisel used to either take off the bolts at some time or tighten the bolts on reassembly. Either way, not using the star socket for removal/assembly is a sure sign of a hack mechanic.
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jvandyke  



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 205
Location: Hudsonville, MI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fifty50Plus wrote:
I suspect that the gouges in the flywheel bolts are from and air chisel used to either take off the bolts at some time or tighten the bolts on reassembly. Either way, not using the star socket for removal/assembly is a sure sign of a hack mechanic.

That's not the only sign I can tell you that!
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