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FRANKENCIS - microsquirt replaces WUR > UTCIS
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8166
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying that WUR enriches by restricting the air flow trough the air meter?
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:58 am    Post subject: test results Reply with quote

The results are in..

All of these numbers are with the airplate at 100% travel and full flow, per injector..

103 psi system pressure

Frequency valve full closed/unplugged
76.5 grams in 30 sec

Frequency valve plugged in and running as default (can measure actual duty cycle later)
102.53 grams in 30 sec

Frequency valve full open, +12v constant
163.97 grams in 30 sec

Frequency valve full open, +12v constant @ 89 psi system pressure (removed my bump shim)
159.53 grams in 30 sec


WOW this means a LOT.. The lower chamber pressure adjustable range is HUGE!!
You can DOUBLE the fuel flow between 0% duty cycle and 100% duty cycle!! 100% increase in fuel flow with 100% increase in FV duty cycle..

I almost can't believe that, it is said that our lambda system has very little authority and is only effective at idle and cruise and can only work at all if your tune is already very close..
It looks like the actual capability of the lower chambers far exceeds the capability of the lambda brain..


And that change in system pressure has little to negligible effect only increasing flow by around 3% at a 14% change in pressure..

I expected the system pressure to have all the authority and the lower differential pressure to be a weak modifier, my hypothesis was wrong on that but this is great news for controlling CIS-Lambda via microsquirt, it means microsquirt will have much more fine control that I imagined...

Now if someone can turn those gram/sec numbers into lb/hr and then into HP that would be really cool..

What does 164 grams per 30 seconds of fuel get you as far as HP?
X4 because that's just 1 injector..

This is going to be pretty much the max HP a 931 fuel distributor can support reasonably, without internal modification..

I also found the airplate to have 43mm of maximum travel down from its rest, and that the last 3-4mm had no increase on fuel flow..
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
Are you saying that WUR enriches by restricting the air flow trough the air meter?


Exactly, but backwards..

The WUR enriches by DE-restricting the airflow through the air meter.. Or enleans by restricting/making it harder to move the airplate..

Lower control pressure = less restriction - longer plate/piston travel - larger slit opening for same amount of airflow = more fuel at the same air flow..

It decides how much force it takes to move the plate and adjusts mixture this way and only this way..


Oh and I tryed measuring the weight it took to move the airplate at 4.05 Bar control pressure..

250 grams wouldn't budge it, it takes quite a bit of force, I guess 400 grams to make it move from 0 but that's just a guess..
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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reanimotion  



Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent work Ed thanks

1 CC of fuel is 748.9milligrams

so

164 grams per 30 seconds = 438 cc/min or 41.7 lbs/hr

good for approximately 330HP at 0.5 bsfc
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www.FrankenCIS.com
1981 928S ROW KE3-Jetronic 4.7 not even remotely stock
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reanimotion wrote:


good for approximately 330HP at 0.5 bsfc


But thats max max right?

What do you reasonably expect to be able to squeeze from that in the real world?

Should easily be able to make 300hp no?

That means 1.5 Bar boost is going to about it and that'll be cutting it close..
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reanimotion  



Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was your 100% travel test full down or at the 37mm max opening point for the metering slits

apparently past 37mm the last few available mm of travel before it bottoms actually starts to close off the slits again, so there may be more flow in the head than you measured if the plate was bottomed out

see http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/665600-information-about-934-cis-injection.html#post6626613
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www.FrankenCIS.com
1981 928S ROW KE3-Jetronic 4.7 not even remotely stock
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottomed out..

The GF held the plate for me.
Though she is a great help, it would have been much more complicated trying to get her to understand exactly what you just said so bottomed out it was..

So there you have it, 1.5 Bar boost it is.. You're not getting there without full control of the lower chamber pressure though..

That lower chamber pressure is the hat trick..
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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reanimotion  



Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then thanks to you both!, that's good new data, and there is probably more fuel available than you measured and the 300+ HP should be easy on a stock head.
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www.FrankenCIS.com
1981 928S ROW KE3-Jetronic 4.7 not even remotely stock
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8166
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We dont have the freqvency valve in europe, and i got 9AFR at 1.5bar.
1.1bar gives me an AFR of 11 at 5000RPM and above.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes you have a different distributor and it's very possible it could flow a lot more than our US ones..

You could run the test with your metering plate wide open and switch 1 injector into an empty bottle for 30 seconds and see what shey'll really do..

Being so rich up high like that sounds like an excellent built in safety measure to keep you from blowing up your engine..

You would want to map/adjust for higher control pressure up top at that boost:rpm to actually be able to run there not so insanely rich..
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my Merc V8 fuel distributor in yesterday and my first thoughts "wow it's big"... Real big, scary big..

This morning I got a chance to take it to the car to do some eyeballing and by god I think it'll fit in the OEM location between the washer bottle and the RAD, and between the cam pulley and pop up lights bar leaving room for the crank arm swing but it's going to be tight..

If anything I think it may require me to swap to lower profile RAD fans to make room for its 3" air exit (vs 2.5" 931), maybe, maybe not..

Mounts are different, AFM intake is bigger, AFM exit is bigger, injector lines need some crazy plan, supply/return lines need customizing I think etc..
It's going to be a lot of custom but I think I can pull it off

Don't hold your breath, it will be some time. I think I'll get the injector lines situation sorted out first (I have a scheme) and get all the electronics sorted out before I go trying to install it but you never know, I may get a hair up my a** and try some crazy stuff at any time..

I'm running pretty good with a /6 compressor right now so I think I'll enjoy that for a moment before I put the car down for changes again..
I'll snap some pics of this monster sitting next to the original under the hood for you guys when I can get my fingers on the camera today..
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


















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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have recieved my care package from Australia

Everything looks great and very professional.
I was not expecting the connectors but I see they fit the BMW coolant sensors I have so that's really cool.

The instructions folder that came with it is very nice. It shows how to do all the wiring and even detailed instructions on how to set all the settings on the Microsquirt that look simple.





Thanks Steve!
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8166
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks good, lets see what it can do on your car
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coldwarvet  



Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 51
Location: near sandy oregon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:29 am    Post subject: FrankenCIS Reply with quote

...did you ever get the system installed and running?...I have the system installed and am currently doing some tuning ( I didn't get the nice book that you did)...thought you might be able to help...
Hank
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