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FRANKENCIS - microsquirt replaces WUR > UTCIS
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1853
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:54 am    Post subject: FRANKENCIS - microsquirt replaces WUR > UTCIS Reply with quote

So pretty much on CIS basic/lambda this thing replaces your WUR with a fuel injector and the code in microsquirt is modified to fully adjust your control pressure with tunerstudio and self tuning features etc. It will also drive the frequency valve for fine control.

Only the fueling portion of the microsquirt is modified so it will still drive your ignition and boost control/n2o whatever just like regular microsquirt does if you want it to do that too..

There full "kit" to replace the WUR is about $1k but comes with a wideband, microsquirt, all the sensors, the colmplete replacement WUR, etc. Check it out on there site.. It could be DIY'd a bit cheaper I imagine..

I need to read a lot more about this before I can really tell you about it, I'm behind the curve not knowing squat about megasquirt.
I read this whole thread (where I found it) and it looks extremely promising.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/820323-digital-wur-plus-frankencis.html
Its already on a bunch of Porsches, Mercs, Volvos, a lotus etc..

Cool pic..


There FAQ..

---------------

Hi everyone!
I'm Steve from Reanimotion, the creator of FrankenCIS.

FrankenCIS began as idea some time ago and turned into a skunk-works project mid last year. From the beginning we assumed only a few hard-core enthusiasts would be interested, but as the project progressed it became apparent we had tapped into a large group of people who, like me, just didn't see the value in replacing CIS with EFI if it could be properly controlled.

The basic premise was to use an existing and fully featured traditional EFI controller that could be modified to interface with all versions of K-Jetronic / CIS. Thus keeping CIS in place and adding all the fun toys a standalone controller could bring to the party such as boost control - ignition control - triggered accessory outputs and so on. The MicroSquirt was chosen as 1. we could modify the firmware 2. it was the best built economical version in the MegaSquirt family 3. it had the appropriate number and range of inputs and outputs to control the known variety of engines with CIS.

Love it or hate it, MegaSquirt in MicroSquirt form is actually a mature and robust system we have tested extensively over four years. Tricking it into controlling CIS was one of the simpler things we have made it do in that time.

Our focus over the last six months or so has definitely been on the fuelling side of things. As we have not changed any of the other capabilities of the MicroSquirt the standard MSExtra manual should be used as a reference for everything other than fuelling.

Our fuel control strategy differs slightly from normal EFI in that we are assuming an interceptor style of fuel map implementation where 100 is the mechanical baseline and entering a map value of less than 100 leans out the mixture and values over 100 adds fuel.

Tuning wise, WUR based K-Jet/CIS is simpler than KE/CIS-E, the latter being a more complicated system to begin with, but the end result of either still achieves fully mappable tuning with Time and Temperature based warm up curves, Manifold Pressure / RPM based load tables, Wideband O2 AFR target table blending, Acceleration Enrichment in conjunction with Air Plate Overswing and so on.

We have had Mike from Dkubus involved from the very beginning and there are several others worldwide who are about to do some extensive evaluation including at least one tuning house and CIS specialist "engine dyno" testing both variations on high HP Porsche 930 Turbo engines.

The project and resulting products are still in the early stages of proving themselves in the field, so we are deliberately not advertising the system until there is enough real world feedback on various installations to give those that are rightly sceptical some confidence we have "done it right".

-------------------------

There website is here..
http://www.frankencis.com/

Thought you guys might like to see this, I for one am very interested..
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Fifty50Plus  



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
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Location: Washington DC area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subscribed for my NA race car. We have done mechanical shims on the fuel distributor and changes to the lambda brain and both worked. WUR relocated was our next effort. This looks trick.
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=32799

Considering how unreliable their previous attempt was, I'm not sure I'd want to guinea pig that system on my Turbo car with its collection of NLA parts.

Good luck with it though!
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do realize these are different guys right?

The main differences are that the UTCIS was using a stepper motor to adjust control pressure which was too slow to respond. Oh and terrible build quality, this build quality looks top notch..
These guys are using a housed fuel injector with a pressure dampener and a digital sensor iirc. And that UTCIS was using some custom tuning device. This one uses a tried and true EFI controller, the microsquirt..

They seem to be getting very good results with no sign of failure or people complaining (yet), good reviews so far.

What they are doing that I think is REALLY cool, is they have one that interfaces directly with CIS-E...
CIS-E has no WUR, it is completely controlled by lower chamber pressure digitally, like what our frequency valve does but on a larger scale.

What that means to us is..
Remove all our CIS components, replace with Merc V8 (ala GTS) CIS-E distributor/airplate assembly, add microsquirt and interface, few sensors, and wham..

No more CIS max fuel flow problem ever, the thing is probably good to 500 hp easy, more than I'll ever need..
Fine control and tuning of your AFRs, they are saying the CIS-E ones are the best of the bunch they have done so far.
No more WUR to clog, no more frequency valve to replace, no more lambda system taking up dead weight. All GONE and replaced by only the distributor..
And it'll still drive your ignition +
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its not the same guys that did UTCIS, right?
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, these guys are in Australia.
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kcoyle  



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So one would need this WUR and the same components as an FI install (IAT sensor, water temp sensor, TPS, etc) minus the fueling components (Injectors, rail,/bungs)?

That still leaves the Fuel dizzy, accumulator, freq valve, high pressure pump(s)?
Does one remove the CSV, AuxAirValve, and thermo time switch?

I have never prices out a full FI system but it seems like for a few dollars more (great movie) you can go full FI and ditch some 30 year old components, drop the high pressure fuel system and make hella space under the hood.

Do I have a correct understanding of how this works? Or am I talking out of my ass drinking coffee at my desk?
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morghen  



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i'm not mistaken you can run this thing with just a MAP sensor and a water temp sensor and it will work just like the original WUR but you can tell it when to enrich and when to not based on a boost map and enable the warm up cycle based on the coolant temp.

That thing only enriches or leans out the AFR by bleeding pressure from the system trough an injector. Pretty clever.

You still have to install the MS tho...to control the bleeding valve(injector)
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, the only reason for not going the whole hog and going full EFI is keeping some originality under the bonnet. In that case the Frankencis should be using the stock WUR body or at least be looking like the stock WUR. In all other senses you may as well ditch CIS entirely for full standalone ECU/EFI set up.

Great idea though.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what comes with the complete kits..


all of the basic components required to custom install FrankenCIS in a K-Jetronic equipped vehicle

FrankenCIS e-WUR block,
e-WUR damper,
e-WUR damper seal,
e-WUR Digital Control pressure sensor,
e-WUR Control Injector,
Intake Air Temp sensor,
Wideband O2 controller,
Bosch 4.9 wideband sensor,
Weld in Exhaust M18 sensor bung,
3 Bar Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (suitable for boosted or NA applications),
Coolant sensor,
Connector pack for all included sensors,
Microsquirt ECU pre-loaded with FrankenCIS e-WUR firmware and start-up tune,
Microsquirt standard Long harness


all of the basic components required to custom install FrankenCIS in a KE-Jetronic equipped vehicle

FrankenCIS DPR control module,
Mercedes genuine EHA (DPR) connector,
Mercedes genuine Idle valve connector,
Intake Air Temp sensor,
Wideband O2 controller,
Bosch 4.9 wideband sensor,
Weld in Exhaust M18 sensor bung,
3 Bar Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (suitable for boosted or NA applications),
Coolant sensor,
Connector pack for all included sensors,
Microsquirt ECU pre-loaded with FrankenCIS DPR firmware and start-up tune,
Microsquirt standard Long harness

Or...

Reference Install Parts List

MicroSquirt (tm) MicroSquirt Engine Management System DIYAutoTune.com (30 inch harness) or the longer 8' harness option MicroSquirt Engine Management System DIYAutoTune.com (8 foot harness)

FrankenCIS (tm) Metering Block #1 or #2
Injector - Delphi FJ10409 Fuel Injector (Single) For Dodge Chrysler Eagle 1993-1997 New Delphi FJ10409 11B1 Fuel Injector 4573062 4G1156 FJ208 | eBay
CP sensor - from Ahead Instruments (eBay store 100psi items - Ahead Instruments eBay Store)

Pressure Damper ( if using FrankenCIS #2 ) Denso 23270-62010 (xref to AIRTEX 3G1015 WELLS FD424 STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS FPD4 )
Gasket for above damper Toyota 23232-41081 http://www.toyotapart.com/23232-41081.html

MAP sensor - Denso
IAT sensor - BOSCH 0280130085, PORSCHE 99360611400 SEAT, SKODA, VW 058905379, FAE 33226
Engine Temp sensor - Bosch 996 unit
WBo2 - Innovate LC2
(to suit a particular application the four sensors above can be substituted with anything compatible with MegaSquirt)
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ideola  



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrera RSR wrote:
The way I see it, the only reason for not going the whole hog and going full EFI is keeping some originality under the bonnet. In that case the Frankencis should be using the stock WUR body or at least be looking like the stock WUR. In all other senses you may as well ditch CIS entirely for full standalone ECU/EFI set up.

Great idea though.


+100%

It appears to be a well-executed idea, but I can hardly see the justification based on the expense as compared to full EFI conversion. If it were even marginally less expensive, or marginally more direct bolt-on, it would make a bit more sense to me.

Still, slick looking components and really nice idea.
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Fasteddie313  



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your points, but these sorts of things are not always rational.
To me the look of a V8 fuel distributor under the hood connected 2 ports per injector like the GTS would be about the epitome of cool factor.
It totally fits with the somewhat period correct modified original restomod style/look that I greatly prefer.

Going full EFI feels like almost taking its soul and replacing it with a robot, may as well swap in a v8 at that point and forget all the 924 stuff under the hood.

Full EFI would be a more powerful device allowing the most control and be the best after setup completely (guessing) but would I ever really need anything more than what a V8 distributor would give me? I highly doubt it..

The CIS-E conversion looks much easier than a full blown standalone, the FD would basically go into the same spot and hopefully even retain the OEM airbox (because I like it).

Here is some dialogue pertaining to how "easy bolt on" it would be. This guy has the same CIS-E distributor I'm looking at on his 928 (not the OEM distributor)

---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
Would it come with a good enough "base map" for it to run(ish) and simply tune from there or will it require a whole lot of figuring computer things out to get it to work?

A
Yes - the advantage of CIS is the air plate and fuel distributor form the base map by default , so all we are actually doing is a +/- fuel adjustment in the 'map'.
So with basic CIS a flat map with all 100s in the cells is enough to get the vehicle running. CIS-E is slightly offset depending on the black or grey DPR/EHA (Differential Pressure Regulator or Electro-Hydraulic Actuator) so the maps are normally somewhere around 120 or 130 baseline so something like 125 across all cells would be enough to begin

Quote:
I hear with standard EFI Megasquirt it can be the biggest challenge to configure it, get it to run, and then tuning can take a very long time and be a quite daunting and a drawn out affair.
How would this system compare to that?

A
FrankenCIS is much simpler to begin with because of the natural base map behaviour of the CIS system, although the tuning and tweaking to perfect it can be as complex and drawn out as you wish. Mike and I have both found that setting up a calculated AFR table in the MegaSquirt software and then letting the automatic "Live Tune" feature have its way for a while produces pretty good results within a few drive cycles. At least one Dyno session should be factored in for best results.

Quote:
... would you recommend this system to someone who doesn't have a previous standalone EFI install or 2 under their belt? To a megasquirt noob?
Could/would you provide adequate technical support for such a case?

A
I think so - yes. Mike and I both have quite a bit of experience with CIS and although I'd been using the microsquirt product for several years , we developed FrankenCIS as an advanced CIS tuning system that used an EFI controller, but wasn't really EFI, so coming in clean should not be a disadvantage.

---------------


I can grab up the correct Merc v8 dizzy complete with the airplate and external pressure regulator, almost everything but the line fittings..
For $190.00 USD shipped, right now... Yes $190 from a running Merc and it looks very clean.

I have also been offered a FREE interface module from FrankenCIS. I guess to be one of the early guys to try the system out.. They are very interested to get someone to try out a CIS-E system in a boosted application.

That would leave me needing 1 more expensive part, the $340 microsquirt module with pigtail.. I believe I can score the rest next to free around here if I don't have half of it already.. A wideband is already in my budget..

This is so silly tempting that resisting this would be quite an achievement.
The problem is that I already have a bit on my plate to get the car back up and going as is, The budget is covering my turbo, WB, and a new Cam right now but not much else..

I really want to do this but it will take me quite some time to bring everything together and I'd feel bad taking a free box and it taking me too long to actually put it to use for it to have been of any benefit to them.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gives me butterflies in my tummy thinking about this thing..


This one part replaces the entire CIS system except the pumps, accumulator, filter, and injectors..
Plus add the black magic electronic control boxes and sensors for fine AFR control.

It's from a 5.6L (560) Merc V8 86-91 @ 300hp euro stock and good to 500+hp FI as is, so I read. I read there aluminum blocks are the weak link at that point and not the CIS.

Much cheaper than an efi fuel rail and injectors set up, likely half the cost.
Well, this one I scored anyway from a running Merc
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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CÚdric  



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting project, i will follow it closely
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Dutch924-racer  



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/824116-frankencis-digital-wur-via-megasquirt.html
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