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Intercooler or bust..
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Paul  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9445
Location: Southeast Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concrete blocks installed in the wrong direction for jack stands?
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Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
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Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
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nickthompson  



Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 873
Location: Central Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What IC is that? Or at least twll me the dimensions so I can find one to match. You'll save me a lot of time measuring and what not.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere around page 2 ish idk..



http://www.ebay.com/itm/321125451032?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

US $63.99 shipped...

You could go smaller for sure.. Read the thread for what got cut and moved etc.. its not that much.. I read longer threads for breakfast..




Paul wrote:
Concrete blocks installed in the wrong direction for jack stands?


Ugh.. I know I know..

The blocks have a 2X4 and angle shim under them to match the angle of the frame/chassis rails under the car at its jacked position, the center webs of the blocks are directly under where the car sits..

I don't want to argue, its the safest solution I have, I trust it..
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1987
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice that you almost got it together, its very similar to my ic plans. So very interesting to see your progress. I hope to se that car running soon!
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11379
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hose running behind the alt will have a hole rubbed through it someday.
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Kenodog  



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2584
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you have done a great job on this. The only issue I see is whether the car will get the cooling it need now that the rad is totally covered. Also, because of the runner length I wonder how bad the lag will be and whether there will be idle droop when you take your foot off the gas.

Don't listen to the nay sayers on anything Freddie, as one of the few people here that has successfully built a functioning I/C here on the Board I know exactly what it's like to have your ideas picked apart. Mine ended up working perfectly on my 931 and is in fact still in use today on another members car.

Keep on keepin' on.


Leigh
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenodog wrote:
I think you have done a great job on this. The only issue I see is whether the car will get the cooling it need now that the rad is totally covered.


Thank you very much, I think I saw carreraRSR's car with the bumper cut open in the middle and talk of removing the sheet metal under the nose vents to get that air to the RAD...

I'll explore that if it's needed or if I run out of other stuff to do..


Kenodog wrote:
because of the runner length I wonder how bad the lag will be and whether there will be idle droop when you take your foot off the gas.
I also wonder.. We shall see..

Don't listen to the nay sayers on anything Freddie, I know exactly what it's like to have your ideas picked apart.

Yeah but I'm gonna be able to spank most their cars or keep up with 1/5th the expenditure so what's that worth? I do greatly appreciate there advice because when they say I'm wrong I probably am.. Some things I do anyway because I think I'm right...

[/b]
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hit a roadblock on reassembly today..
The 4 longer studs I bought by eyeball for the WG - J-pipe connection weren't quite long enough.... All is in loose but the J-pipe, the last piece to go on before tightening everything up..
Screech Halt..

WG = terrible job..

Did get the RAD fans finish wired very nice and tidy today with a nice bigger red US Military +12v wire and a new closer ground..
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's ALIVE!!!!

And WOW!!

It's a lot different, lets talk about the positive first..

THE GOOD

I think I've picked up easy 10% more power adding an IC and swapping to S1 turbo from S2 still on just the OG boost spring, and everything just feels much healthier, smoother, better, runs better than ever everywhere period.. Except a couple things below..

Throttle response is not significantly decreased, its just as fast but a bit softer when you crack it, not so VAPP ie if that makes any sense, that's from idle, throttle response at revs driving is just fine/unchanged..

Boost lag doesn't seem to be worse just softer, like instead of 0 to 100 instantly it comes on smoother, even stepping from S2 turbo to S1 turbo at that.. Actually I think this turbo spools more at idle and cruise than my last one did and boost seems to be more readily available... Go figure..

WG seems to be working just fine, it has more smoothe power than before but nothing banshee like, no boost gauge yet..

Rad fans are completely capable of keeping it cool idling just as before, if you put your hand in front of the IC you can feel a LOT of air pulling through it.. I watched the temp gauge and it never got higher than usual.. No rad fans came in while the car was moving..

It feels a lot different, even smoother at high revs on boost, very smoothe and less scary sounding, before it sounded like it didn't like WOT at 5k + but now its calm like asking for more..

I can lay my cheek on the upper charge pipe after a bit of a run, definately fully up to temp, it's well cooler than the IC in side..

The IC in side feels hot, like maybe too hot to shower in, about there..
The IC out side feels too cold to swim in, like colder than anything else, colder than ambient air temp, I'm not sure if thats possible but it feels like it, cold metal..

Thats after a cool down mile or so, I didn't stop right after heavy boost and feel things, I should..

I did not have to change the idle at all, just under 1k like I left it...

No more turbo smoke at all nothing zero, the only smoke was all my penetrating oil burning off the outside of the exhaust, there was quite a bit of that but not coming out of the exhaust..

THE BAD

Now the RAD is extremely solid mounted and you can feel the rad fans through the whole car, scared the crap out of me at first I thought my engine bearings were going but nope its the rad fans, I don't like it..

New 20-50 valvoline full synth (same - zinc additive) oil and no improvement in oil pressure at all which sucks, IDK what's going on, plenty of oil under the oil cap to the cam, plastic elbow is fine, no noises in the bottom end at all, same valvetrain noise not scary sounding.. IDK.. Gonna keep running it..

I screened the oil I dumped out of it today and nothing in it, poked around through the drain hole with an extendo magnet and nothing..

Did the dwell test a couple times, at first it was perfect just like I left it (41-46 swing) but checked just warmed at idle to where fans start working, like I did last time actually before the IC..

2nd dwell test after about 10 miles or so and a few gears WOT to 5.5k plus cool down mile before coming back in, dwell was a bit leaner at 45-50 swing so I brought it back down to the low/mid 40's, just a touch rich... I did not adjust afr this warmed up last time, just rad fan idle warmed up last time.. This time was like oil cooler hot warmed up, that may explain that difference..

Now after revving return to idle takes about 2X as long, I suspected a vacuum leak but I checked everything 5 times and didn't really mess with any post TB vacuum stuff in the first place, idle isnt higher, no boost/vac gauge line yet, same old WG line, All nice new vac lines except a few that are very high quality hydraulic like wrapped hoses I left..

I ran it for about 2 hours straight not shutting it off, check for leaks 100 times never shutting it off, all good..

When I finally parked it and shut it down my expansion tank cap leaked out about a quart of fluid, Maybe I topped it off a touch too much, I know I need a new expansion tank cap, every time I shut it down ever after a few minutes there would be the faintest hiss/squeak from the cap leaking, not when first shut down but after sitting for a bit.. If I take the cap off to relieve the pressure (not much) and put it back on the hiss/squeak comes back, this all minutes after shutdown.

I have had it boil over like this before a few times, a couple times wayy worse when I first got it running and had a red hot turbo from the line to the bottom of the fuel dizzy not being hooked up, this happens minutes after shutdown so the pressure builds after its off, bleeding the coolant purge solved this before...

Moving the rad around back and forth and squeezing the RAD lines surged fluid around in the system a lot, you could see it in the expansion tank, maybe I squirted some air in toward the head, or an air pocket was allready there from the cap leaking a tiny bit?

Minutes after shutdown when it was building pressure/leaking out the cap I could hear gurgling coming from where the RAD line comes off the back of the head by the firewall, I think its an air pocket there created my my expansion tank cap loosing a bit of pressure.

The cap should be completely sealed up to like 1 bar correct? Mine is not, it leaks a tiny bit only a while/minutes after shutdown..

Oh an my BOV leaks a bit at half boost acceleration or higher, I can hear it making a similar noise as when it blows off, it sounds stupid like an alt belt slipping but just for a second, EERrrk.. I'll crank down the spring until the leak goes away.. Hope that works, I do have it at just barely any spring pressure as I thought that was the setting to start at..


QUESTIONS

What's with the revs not dropping as fast? Is this just a normal aspect of adding much much more intake tract? Do you think I have a vacuum leak?

IDK dwell says I'm good, exhaust not overly hot like a lean condition, I think it's running better than ever at all revs and loads, I don't think there are any air leaks anywhere..

How bout that expansion tank cap tiny leak hiss/squeak all the time minutes after shutdown? This would let air pockets form in the head by letting off pressure multiplying the problem correct?

The pressure isn't there until after the engine sits hot and off..

No oil/water mixing, it does not build pressure until minutes after its shut off, I think the head gasket is NOT the cause because that would pressurize at WOT not after shutdown.. IDK It did not leak a drop of anything running for 2 hours straight until after it was shut off.. The water didn't come out of the cap like it reached its pressure limit and popped off, it just pushed out all the air in the expansion tank and then water slowly, like a quart in 2 minutes..

Any advice you guys can offer me on all of that? Sorry it's so long and overly explained/multiply stated...

EDIT: I topped up the expansion tank to "max", lifted the front end wayy up, bled the coolant bleeder and got a few bubbles for a minute..

Then I took it for a 10 mile run, no WOT's to high R's, shifting between 3k-4k, lot of stop start to 60 and up and down the big hill but not thrashing on it just cruising..

Runs awesome, still no leaks while running, I was playing with a bit over half throttle from 2k in 4th and it seems the boost comes on at about 2750 and has lots of power by 3100, going through the gears casually 3k-4k it accelerates effortlessly..

Shut it off, popped the hood, 30 seconds, watch the expansion tank expand slowly and slowly leak out the cap, bout 1/2 quart this time, no gurgling this time...

Shit.. It wasn't this bad doing this every time before, once in a blue moon before...

Is my cap getting worse and replacing it will solve all my misery? That may be too optimistic..

Oh and I cranked up the BOV a bit, no more leak at boost...

I notice a direct relation between the BOV blowing off and the revs dropping, as the BOV blows off the revs drop faster than not, when it stops blowing off the revs drop slower, If I didn't have enough boost for the BOV to EERrk blow off the revs drop slower than when it does EERrk, while its EERrking the revs drop faster/normal.....
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leadfoot  



Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
It's ALIVE!!!!

What's with the revs not dropping as fast? Is this just a normal aspect of adding much much more intake tract? Do you think I have a vacuum leak?

BOV too small/wrong location/ as close to the throttle plate as practical, throttle cable could be sticking, ABV leaking / air getting circumvented around throttle plate... potentially increase spring return tension to snap the throttle shut... but check your throttle stop setting...make sure the plate is closing fully...


How bout that expansion tank cap tiny leak hiss/squeak all the time minutes after shutdown? This would let air pockets form in the head by letting off pressure multiplying the problem correct?

you bled with the heater valve open right?, could be a leak in the heater core otherwise... pressure test the system....

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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadfoot wrote:

BOV too small/wrong location/ as close to the throttle plate as practical, throttle cable could be sticking, ABV leaking / air getting circumvented around throttle plate... potentially increase spring return tension to snap the throttle shut... but check your throttle stop setting...make sure the plate is closing fully...

Yup I need to port the upper charge pipe bigger inside for the BOV line still..

Don't think the throttle is sticking..

ABV???? You mean AAV aux air valve? Or whats the one "throttle bypass valve" or something that closes gradually when you shut the throttle fast to prevent backfires and makes the revs drop slower? "Air Bypass Valve" its called?
I thought about plugging that throttle bypass thing off and seeing what it does without it, I wouldn't mind some crackling but real BANG backfires wouldn't be acceptable..

My TB butterflies/plates don't have stops, I tore it all down for cleaning and put it all back together and adjusted them and tightened them, then they disappeared, vibrated out, IDK, theyre gone with the wind.. Its been like this forever practically, you think this would be causing problems now? Figured I'd replace the whole TB eventually with something cooler..
I think the throttle plates are closing extra fully actually
Which may have me adjusting the idle air port adjustment much more open to compensate?


you bled with the heater valve open right?, could be a leak in the heater core otherwise... pressure test the system....

Nope, my heater valve is froze about 1/10th open, can't open it or get it to shut... I have another one that works well but I haven't installed it yet..

Yup my heater drips a very tiny bit out the bottom of the plastic heater unit randomly/intermittent by the drivers feet LHD but seemingly only when its really cold outside..
Maybe I'll bypass the whole heater and valve for now untill I can sort it all out, it's not exactly priority..

It pressure tests itself, it only leaks from the expansion tank cap slowly, maybe its also dripping from the heater core while its doing this but not enough for me to have noticed.. I looked like crazy for leaks just not in the cabin..

[/quote]

Your spot on!! Wanna pick me some lotto #'s?

TYVM

I guess tomorrow I'll...

Bypass the heater, rebleed cooling system
Buy a new expansion tank cap if napa has one I can afford
Port the upper charge tube for the BOV
Experiment with blocking that air bypass valve and/or strip clean reinstall tweak it
See what my TB is doing with no stops
Let my calipers sit in there box at my moms another day, haven't even laid eyes on them yet, + pieces of my permanent CIS tester are waiting too

The revs drop thing isn't really that bad, certainly doesn't make it undrivable, it actually helps with my 1-2 slow careful unsynchronized shift..

Cooling system needs fixed ASAP, main priority, sucks that has to become a problem right this minute like I don't have plenty to do..

It's not even like the car is running any hotter at all now, probably cooler overall, but noo it has to complain, probably because it's 100 hose clamps don't all match or something...
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Last edited by Fasteddie313 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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leadfoot  



Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BOV 1" line or bigger... what's that Tee size...? and make sure the vacuum port has a decent feed...


Fasteddie313 wrote:
Plenty of room
BOV, my nipple out of the upper charge pipe was already destroyed when I got the car.. Does it matter which direction the BOV is installed?


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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadfoot wrote:
BOV 1" line or bigger... what's that Tee size...? and make sure the vacuum port has a decent feed...



The BOV line is 1" from the BOV to the other side of the turbo but it actually goes to 7/8 at the final barb, there is also a 90 down there... BOV - 1" hose - 1" 90 - 7/8 coupling - 7/8 barb...

Coming off the upper charge tube that T is the same size as the BOV and the connection to the charge tube is bigger/stretched on the outside but its center hole is small like 1/2"as the OEM hard 90 that comes out of there..

I'm talking about porting out the middle of the hole on the upper charge tube where the BOW line connects.. From about 1/2" to as big as logical/possible..

The BOV vacuum line goes to that tiny post TB vacuum line that works the distributor and other things, its in that pic right on the TB under the idle screw but not yet T'd in tn the pic, just T'd into the OEM vac setup, I do think that little nipple is overstressed as I want to run a line from the big connection under the manifold for the top port MBC and boost/vac gauge, may as well T into that bigger one for the BOV vac signal as well when I get that far..

Porting the BOV off of the upper charge tube should make a lot of difference..

Here in this pic you can see where the BOV T's into that TB vac port as it is right now... 16 hose clamps I count just in this pic, stupid amount of hose clamps on this car, my hose clamp stash is severely depleted now...


Also notice I turned the BOV like you, leadfoot, said to...
See how much nicer mt ALT ground is and that the fuel line holder thing is moved a bit to accommodate for the BOV in this direction..

Eventually I'm going to experiment with blowing off the BOV to atmosphere instead of recirculation, mainly just to find out how much flamethrowing/backfiring actually happens and if its is or is not at acceptable levels..
Same with that throttle bypass valve thing...
Some decel crackling and shooting flames would be no big deal, maybe even preferred, but loud real BANG backfires would be unacceptable..
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2013
Location: MI

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making progress..

Heater core and valve bypassed, had to remove the coil..

Expansion tank cap seal ring was split, there is the leak, innards/check valve pressure dump things on springs look great..
I cut open a scrap of big hose and cut a new cap seal ring out of the now flat rubber material..

I took off the upper charge tube, knocked the pressed in insert out of it, ported the inside of it wide open with a carbide burr, filed the outside for better hose fitment, washed it out with water, then break parts cleaner, then compressed air..
Finally reinstalled it all back up..

Started it up with the front end way high, bled the bubbles out of the cooling system again, check 100 times for leaks, no leaks..

Drove around in 1-2 gears for a couple minutes to get it hot, parked it, let the rad fans cycle a couple times and then shut it off just as the rad fan came on again like I usually do..

It did not boil over this time or even threaten to... Cap no longer squeaks all the time either..

I think I may have solved it, I'm gonna go for a rip...

WENT FOR RIP...

Everything perfect...

Bunch of WOT up the hill, up-down a couple few times... This is about a 1/2 mile long hill with corners you can't just go flat out up.. Maybe I'll make a vid of it some day..

The revs drop faster, the BOV EERrks more and longer but only when the throttle is dropped from boost..

I only gave it a mile at 60 cruise cool down after a hard run to the top of the hill, then idle for 10 minutes and checked dwell again, perfect, still no leaks..

Shut it off, fans cycled 2 times after shutdown so it was quite hot...

Did not loose any water at shut down, no gurgling or water noises anymore..

Man I am a happy camper today...
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canyonblaster  



Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 389
Location: Denver, CO, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: good on ya mate! Reply with quote

I want!!
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