View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
924girl
Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 5 Location: connecticut
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: is dad right or can i show him the light?1987 924 ls1 swap |
|
|
My dad drove a 1967 chevy belair forever he was a dye hard chevy fan.(still has it bad shape now someday he wants to restore for me) his dream car was a red corvette. He had no son im his oldest daughter he raised me as a daughter but never loved me less than a son. i passed our last name along to my son to continue our name. so in a sense i am his son!so for all you guys doing projects with dad help me out here please! i love cars as much as he does! hes a master mechanic x milatary he has his own shop currently and does ok for himself. he can work on anything anywhere anytime perfection!!! he will do any labor provided i give him $just for the parts. I love german cars i totaled my 2003 e320 benz wagon in december.so blindly I bought a 1987 924 not knowing the possibilities. i want to do the c5 ls1 swap. he says if i keep it stock the value would be better (like we are talking antiques not cars). hes says its more than i think its gonna be involved. (i am ok with the ending parts cost of 6 to 10k). is dad right or can i show him the light? i plan on letting him go through every bolt every inch of it like 1 1/2 months of being serious about it....maybe the car will run great after some minor parts replacement.... will the swap decrease the value as a collector item? or can dad and i bond to create a nasty nasty beast a frankenstien of my love for chevy power and german engineering. should i listen to dad like i'm just a miss behaving child (even though i'm 30) or bring him up to speed about the possibilities these days. can anyone recommend any reading on this i can foreward to him to bring him to the dark side and help me create this frankenstien? _________________ 924girl
1987 924S |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Renegade Hybrids has a well developed kit (10 years plus) that will make an LS installation a breeze.
Traction could end up being problematic, but a CGT body kit will help with that.
One of our hardest working guys here, joecitizenn just did an LT. Do a search for video (AND AUDIO) of it running. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15548 Location: Spring Lake MI
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And for what it's worth, there is no value in a 924S, especially an '87. In my opinion, that's one of the great things about these cars, is that there is no shame in modifying them, even to the extreme.
The only conversion I think would be more worthwhile than what you're contemplating is swapping a 968 RS Turbo replica powertrain into the 924S. Period- and family-correct, it would look almost stock, and would be a total sleeper. But your dad may not have the patience, willingness or inclination to learn the nuances of these Porsche motors. Sounds like he's an american iron kind of guy, so maybe stick with the Renegate Hybrid approach. _________________ erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
|
Back to top |
|
|
joecitizennn
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 2096 Location: no mans land
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: is dad right or can i show him the light?1987 924 ls1 sw |
|
|
924girl wrote: | he says if i keep it stock the value would be better (like we are talking antiques not cars). hes says its more than i think its gonna be involved. (i am ok with the ending parts cost of 6 to 10k). is dad right or can i show him the light?? |
If it were a 911 turbo he would probably be right. A 1987 924s is hardly a high priced or highly sought after exotic. The chevy v8 conversions are developing a cult following and there is a demand for them... rightly so.
From a performance standpoint you are taking an engine that does what the 944 engine cannot do, and put it in a chassis that does what a camaro or vette cannot do.
Just some food for thought, take a 924s with wide tires, fiberglass body panels, that weighs in at 2500lbs, and consider a 400 horsepower v8 under the hood. A rough calculation gives you a theoretical 0-60 time of 3.3 seconds and a quarter mile in the high tens @ just under 130mph. That is a very serious automobile by even todays standards.
That said, the 924s is a smooth and quite refined automobile. They are easy to drive, reasonably fast, quiet, and pretty reliable if maintained. Taking a car so light and adding such massive torque attainable at lower rpms takes some getting used to and some restraint to drive. My car is no longer forgiving to user error. The clutch is twice as heavy, careless shifting results in whiplash, accidental burnouts do occur. You have to be very careful with your right foot when cornering. No biggie, but something to consider. I do get alot of stares at stoplights with that thing sitting there snorting though.... _________________ 87 924s
88 924SE gone
447 hp cgt clone
87 924S gone
84 944 sold
83 944 sold
89 turbo S LSD, ABS etc
86 951 white rocket
85 944 sport everything.
84 944 sold.
87 944 sold |
|
Back to top |
|
|
924girl
Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 5 Location: connecticut
|
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: its a 924 not 924 s |
|
|
HE HAS THE PASSION! my dad has worked on porsche, ferrari, etc you name it hes done it his whole life....german,jap,american,sweedish,british , bikes, as well as grew up in the muscle car era... he was a fighter jet engine mechanic for the us Navy for almost 20 years if there is an engine he can fix it....if theres not he can build it. he's like magiver (from the old show if u know what i mean) he could probubally build a jet engine from a pile of scrap metal if the only tool he had were a screwdriver (not really...but i know he can make the impossible happen with his knowledge expertise and patience). so no job is to big for him....his motto is failure is not an option.....nice to know car has no value so feel free to mold it to my desires!!!!! if its not worth anything...i cant hurt it then...def will check into renagade _________________ 924girl
1987 924S |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fiat22turbo
Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 4040 Location: Portland, OR
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Welcome!
Check out Texas Performance Concepts as well, they are a bit better respected by the community as a whole and they not only sell the parts but run a forum where people talk about how to do the swap without their parts. Something Renegade hasn't been the best about.
I think a 924S with an LSx would be an awesome swap and the best of both worlds. The smaller aluminum 4.8L is a lovely motor that takes well to bolt-ons and boost, plus they are practically worthless to most folks. I think they may be just right for a car the size of the 924S.
Either way, good luck with it and we looking to hear more about your project _________________ Stefan
1979 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
924girl
Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 5 Location: connecticut
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the 968 power train conversion might have me changing my mind here...hmmm. it does sound slightly easier ...and i do want it street drivable. _________________ 924girl
1987 924S |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15548 Location: Spring Lake MI
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
924girl wrote: | the 968 power train conversion might have me changing my mind here...hmmm. it does sound slightly easier ...and i do want it street drivable. |
For inspiration:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?p=263097#263097 _________________ erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
968 power is swell, but consider the maintenance cost difference between LS and 3.0. . .I would call it substantial. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
924girl
Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 5 Location: connecticut
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now that i have been actually crunching numbers the most cost effective thing to do would be the LT1 conversion using an engine from yukon suburban seierra or silverado (i didn't say least amount of work just more cost effective.) maybe i will get lucky and find the porsche 968 parts when my money and timing is right. until then i know the lt1 conversion is more cost effective.and i it was much less than i anticipated...even if i got the 944 conversion kit to lt1 offered by texas performance concepts(less than the ls1) since the 924s and 944 are the same under their body it should work just fine. but this is my first porsche....so im sure there will be another (so already hooked) and either way id like to do both well all three(ls1 conversion too). just a matter of how and when!!! but for the investment cost of the lt1 conversion being the least its a good start point for me _________________ 924girl
1987 924S |
|
Back to top |
|
|
joecitizennn
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 2096 Location: no mans land
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
924girl wrote: | Now that i have been actually crunching numbers the most cost effective thing to do would be the LT1 conversion using an engine from yukon suburban seierra or silverado ) | ]
The trucks did not have the LT1. The lt1 can be found in the corvette, caprice, camaro, firebird, buick roadmaster from the mid 90s to name a few.
I chose an LT because it is a little against the grain of what people are raving about. Everybody is screaming LS because it is lighter and has more HP in stock configuration. That may be true, but the old LT is nothing to poke fun at. It is easy to upgrade the horsepower massively, and the iron block is said by some to take more horsepower and abuse when it comes to supercharged/nitro extremes (1000 hp relm). I dont know if that is proven, but the old small block chevrolet pattern that the engine is based on is legendary hot rod muscle. Easy and affordable to maintain and upgrade. The optispark is the biggest downside to this engine, and I havent had any trouble with mine at all. Im not slamming the Ls as it is an awesome engine, but the LT deserves respect. Plus it just looks cool.
This video was inspiration for my project. I saw it several years ago and the desire stuck. The engine has been stroked to 383 and has around 500 HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjkFxm-SPOA _________________ 87 924s
88 924SE gone
447 hp cgt clone
87 924S gone
84 944 sold
83 944 sold
89 turbo S LSD, ABS etc
86 951 white rocket
85 944 sport everything.
84 944 sold.
87 944 sold |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kevin D
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 152 Location: Boise, ID
|
Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"but consider the maintenance cost difference between LS and 3.0. . .I would call it substantial." - Rasta
Yup. Domestic would be cheaper to keep running. I love driving my 968 powered 924s (I love the sound of that 3L from 4K to redline!) , but I dropped $4.5K pretty quick with only minor tuning and a refresh, and that was after the swap had been done. Now to get any significant HP bump I'm looking at a min of another $4K to see 300hp.
It is a great, well balanced combo (3L in 924s), but I would try the LS swap if I had to do it again. _________________ '88 924S 3L 6sp RedRat
'92 Duc 900ss
'02 Duc 998 Carbon
'72 RD 350 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
juha_teuvonnen
Joined: 30 Aug 2003 Posts: 79
|
Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If I were to re-power a 924 or a 944 with a domestic engine, I would stay away from iron block v8s. Personally, I like the 924/944 series cars because they handle very well. A heavy iron block V8 will upset the balance of the car and make it too nose-heavy IMHO. I mean, if you want something along these lines, you can save yourself some time and money and just buy a Camaro.
An LS1/LS6/LS2/LS3 aluminum block engine is a much better choice. If you use f-body front ancillaries set up, it is fairly compact and should fit in the engine compartment just fine. These engines are extremely light for what they are (a 5.7 - 6.x liter v, but, if memory serves, they are still something to the tune of 100 lbs heavier than the Porsche 4 cylinder engine. You could deal with this issue by buying composite body parts for the front, but that will cost you a good chunk of change. Relocating battery to the back will help some, but I doubt you'll get a close to a 50:50 weight distribution by doing that alone.
Don't get me wrong, I had an LS1 corvette for many years and loved that car. The LS series engines are great, but the budget to do the conversion and retain the 50:50 weight distribution will likely exceed the market value of a used C5 corvette that needs work.
So long as we are on the subject of GM engines, I would look closely at ecotec LNF. It's a compact, light weight 2.0 turbo engine that is good for 290 HP in its stock emissions-compliant form. According to some folks, the stock engine internals are good for something to the tune of 400 Hp. It's direct injected, so you can tune them more aggressive than the likes of 4G63. The direct-injected fuel cools the combustion chamber and the end result is similar to that of water-methanol injection used in WRC cars.
Does anybody have the height of Porsche 2.5 and 2.0 engines from the centerline of the crankshaft to the top of the cylinder head? I have all the dimensions for Ecotec, I would like to see if it fits. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
joecitizennn
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 2096 Location: no mans land
|
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
juha_teuvonnen wrote: | . A heavy iron block V8 will upset the balance of the car and make it too nose-heavy IMHO.. |
I cant say that I notice the increased weight at all. I know its there but they car handles just awesome and still weighs hundreds of pounds less than a corvette or a camaro.
Weights for engines in question
944 350 pounds
ls1 430 pounds
lt1 525 pounds
When i installed my engine I did away with all the lt1s acessories as well at the funky acessory bracket on the front of the engine. The only thing in there besides the engine is a 944 alternator. The entire AC system has also been deleted and the steering is manual and not very heavy at all.
I am making a rough guess to say that the front of the car is 150lbs more than before. I measured the wheel arches at 25" before and 25" after with zero drop from install. (again not what I expected). By the time I finish my GTS headlights, full body flares and fiberglass panels I am sure there will be more than 150 pounds gone from the front anyway. But that is besides the point.
The aluminum block V8 is a superior engine in the weight department period. In my experience (and others) an iron block wont ruin a 924s or its handeling. I cant speak for the older 924 (ask porschev). _________________ 87 924s
88 924SE gone
447 hp cgt clone
87 924S gone
84 944 sold
83 944 sold
89 turbo S LSD, ABS etc
86 951 white rocket
85 944 sport everything.
84 944 sold.
87 944 sold |
|
Back to top |
|
|
juha_teuvonnen
Joined: 30 Aug 2003 Posts: 79
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
joecitizennn wrote: | juha_teuvonnen wrote: | . A heavy iron block V8 will upset the balance of the car and make it too nose-heavy IMHO.. |
I am making a rough guess to say that the front of the car is 150lbs more than before. I measured the wheel arches at 25" before and 25" after with zero drop from install. (again not what I expected). By the time I finish my GTS headlights, full body flares and fiberglass panels I am sure there will be more than 150 pounds gone from the front anyway. But that is besides the point.
|
LT1 is not a bad engine at all, it is more affordable than an LS1 family and can make loads of power.I think we are both in agreement that stock-for-stock it's 175 lbs more than the 944 engine.
Do you know a source for fiberglass panels, or are you planning to fabricate them ? I would think that these parts are pretty expensive if you buy them from a vendor. I remember carbon-fiber M3 hoods + 2 fenders being over2 grand for the good ones that offer weight savings. I also remember some fiberglass hoods being heavier than stock. Of course, that does not necessarily translate into 924/944, so I would really appreciate some info, if you could share. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|