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Noob going EFI...soon...hopefully...with luck...
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject: Noob going EFI...soon...hopefully...with luck... Reply with quote

Well, since not much going on around here lately, thought I'd post something. I have this Arizona car I bought from Dannyrandomstate in 2010 while in New Mexico. He bought it from 924 turbo from this board back in the day, car is from California. Title is so effed up, that I've taken all the parts off of it, and the birds are decorating it as we speak. The engine was rebuilt, as well as the turbo, a Series II car. Nice Porsche script door cards that I'll use in my CGT project. And, I'm going to use this engine in my sunroof delete CGT project as well.

The engine has pink/purplish injectors, and a fuel rail. I have a spare fuel rail like this if anyone is interested. Here's stuff that came with the car that I have questions.

1. Anyway, can anyone identify the injectors and if they are appropriate for an EFI application. Or, what specs they might have. Or, where I might find this information.

2. I have the fuel lines and fuel pressure regulator with vacuum port for boost, and a port for a fuel pressure gauge. Ok on that?

3. I have most of the EDIS stuff, sans the trigger wheel. Megasquirt sells these wheels, small and larger around 6" I think, can these work with our cars?

4. For the CGT, I have this rebuilt Series I engine, head is new, probably needs new springs, it's been sitting for a number of years.Honed and painted block. Reground crank, oversized new rod and crank bearings from EBS Racing, new piston rings, used pistons, like new oil pump, painted and cleaned parts, need to sell this. Have a set of used Series II pistons for it if interested. Head is not torqued down. New ARP head bolts/studs. Cometic metal head gasket. Offers? I can sell it off in parts as well.

5. I see MS III is out, any advantages with this over II?





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flosho  



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 3153
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These look like your injectors you have there:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SMP-STANDARD-FJ729-Fuel-Injector-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZSubmodelQ3aSRTQ2d4QQhashZitem3a64f396afQQitemZ250801788591QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


From a Neon SRT4 (2003 only). They should support 225 whp.



As for megasquirt, I would go with MSIII just because it's the latest and most supported.

If not I can always sell you my MS1 v3 (built by DIYautotune) and I'll upgrade to MSIII.

The FPR and fuel lines look good.

If you have the EDIS stuff then you should be good. One of the trickier parts about EFI conversion is the trigger wheel with EDIS ignition so you'll have to figure out a way to make that work.

Also I would look into just using the EDIS coil and not using the 'control module'. MSIII may be able to control ignition without that control module but I'm not sure. I know there are mods you can do to MS1/MS2 to make it work. I'm sure Min can answer that for us.

Is the EFI car going to be sporting the CGT top mount?
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spendy little bastages those injectors! I won't be using the top mounted GT- racing scoop. I'll have a stock hood on it, but, might add a second naca duct from a spare hood I have, like that look. Using a 944 front mounted intercooler, or a SRT4 intercooler, have both. The SRT4 is thinner and longer, same cubic inches, better at cooling? Jason, I'll give you 500 dollars to help me dial this in. 'I'm a wedding photographer Jim, not a not a megasquirt expert', thank you Bones! Snort. Anyway, I have to get both Spike and the '81 black car on the road first, before I tackle this job. If it cools down some....grrrrrrr.
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you'll be in good shape. One thing to think about (that I'm currently fighting) is that tuning the ignition and the fuel at the same time is a complex process. So be prepared to go slowly and expect to spend a lot of time diagnosing and tuning.

With that said, I do have a spare EDIS trigger wheel pulley made especially for the 924 if you're interested. Its from the group buy we had a while back, but I made my own adapter as I didn't have an A/C pulley to worry about, so I wanted the trigger wheel to sit closer to the engine. I can also make you a mount for the Ford EDIS VR sensor, like I did for my car. I want to make one for Rasta's car, so I'll just build a couple while I'm at it this winter (unless you need it sooner, then I can get to it a little sooner).

As to which MegaSquirt?

http://msextra.com/feature-xref.html

I would go with MS3 as it is the future, although MS2 is well documented and well supported. I think it ultimately depends on what you plan to do with the car and what your budget is. For me, I'm using MS1 because I'm cheap and it will do for a start

Both MS2 and MS3 can control a coil pack and a VR sensor directly without the need for the EDIS control box.

DIYAutoTune is one of the best vendors in the NA for MegaSquirt, so once you make a decision which way to go, they would be where I would go first.
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been on the DIY website quite a bit. Hence, my increased vocabulary! However, that doesn't get one too far, so, I'm going to spend even more time there. I'll take that wheel from ya, Pm me on the price.

I am not sure on the end result of the car. I have a very nice Martini interior that might go in there, or, I might put a cage in and make it a track car with no interior. Lots of time to figure that out.
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Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
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Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flosho wrote:
Also I would look into just using the EDIS coil and not using the 'control module'.


I don't really understand why your suggesting this. If you remove the EDIS control module, it will simply introduce a series of things you will have to tune/tweak rather than letting the EDIS module do it for you. Being that Grenadiers is a new person to all of this, I suggest keeping the EDIS control module to simplify the tuning process. Later on he can remove it and control his ignition directly should that be something that he wants to do.

MSIII supports sequential injection and coil on plug without mods, has onboard SD card logging, usb ports, etc etc. I would only get it if those additional features are something you desire. I don't have one yet, but will probably be getting my hands on one fairly shortly.

Min
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Martijnus  



Joined: 29 Dec 2006
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Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I learned from going to EFI is that everything you can tune or tweak, you will have to understand. So for a carb it's messing with a few screws, with EFI it's messing with dozens of settings, of which you should know what they do.

A lot of features automatically means a lot of studying the function and workings of those features. You can't just tune your car by setting req_fuel to a value someone yelled at a board, you should understand what req_fuel does, how it influences the calculations and thus what different values mean.
Same goes for most other values.

I agree with min that you shouldn't complicate it too much for yourself. I used edis with module, worked like a charm. Can't figure out a valid reason why to ditch it. Even after a year I wasn't done tweaking everything, so don't expect to be finished in a week (tuning that is )

Furthermore it's great fun to do and you'll understand more about how such systems work (also OEM from other manufacturers), how fuelling works.

I invested a lot of time and money in my wiring. Use fuses as much as possible, pick the right wiring gauge, use a lot of colors, document your wiring (actually do that before you start wiring...)

If there's something with the wiring, which will happen certainly, you'll thank yourself for making the wiring sensible.
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a start on understanding this stuff. This past 6 months I put together a GM throttle body injection on our jeep grand wagoneer. Using mostly junkyard parts, ECU, throttle body, sensors. I had a used wiring harness that comes from Howell in MI, but I ended up buying a new one from them to enable the computer to be fitted under the dash. Jeep works great, not nearly as complicated though as the MS systems!
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vdubr928  



Joined: 26 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what do I need to do to get injectors installed in my head? Is there a way to do this without pulling the head? If so im interested in the extra rail.
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Captain_Kirk  



Joined: 17 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you stop using your 911 rear spoiler as a photo background for parts.
That's like looking at a womans necklace strung over some nice cleavage
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's soooo handy though~! Cleanest spot in the garage I might add!
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vdubr928 wrote:
So what do I need to do to get injectors installed in my head? Is there a way to do this without pulling the head? If so im interested in the extra rail.


Well, to do it right, you should pull the head and have a machine shop drill the injectors out. It doesn't take long and you can make sure you've got a good fresh gasket, etc.

However if you want to do it "backyard" style:

Pull the intake manifold and soak a rag in axle grease/vaseline, etc..

Pull the camshaft (or turn it to make sure the intake valves are closed)

Stuff the rag into the intake runner far enough to hit the valves.

Buy one of these drill bits (depending on the type of injectors you're using):

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/injectortool.html (14mm injectors)

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/injectortool11mm.html (11mm injectors)

Carefully measure the injector ports in the head to determine how far down the injectors need to be to have the nozzles barely clear the roof of the intake runner. You may need to bore the threaded portion out to fit the Bosch style injector body, which requires a different diameter tool.

Then use a drill angle guide to ensure all of the holes are at the same angle and depth.

Once a hole is drilled, vacuum the aluminum chips out and then pull the rag and vacuum again. The chips should stick to the greasy rag. A little cleaner and wiping with a clean rag should clean up any stragglers and left over grease.

Finish the holes with a slight chamfer to prevent the O-ring tearing.

Fuel rail can be a completely custom unit:

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash6.html (6AN)

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash8.html (8AN)

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash10.html (10AN)

Or you can use a Ford (CVH or Zetec) 4-cylinder or Chrysler 4-cylinder (2.2/2.5 or 2.0/2.4) rail. Both of which have similar bore spacings (double check the spacing when shopping at your local salvage yard)

Either way, you'll need to fabricate brackets to hold the rail and injectors in place. I would try to bridge the rail between the intake manifold mounting studs and the valve cover studs.
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leadfoot  



Joined: 11 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

???
I had bosch injectors and just got some insert bungs made, seems like alot of trouble to go to drill out the head if it's not already off...
plenty of room there to use o rings to seal them in place too,
Stu
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but I hate not being able to use all of that spray pattern and it helps to fit the injectors and rail lower to clear the intake tubes or breathers (especially on the turbo cars)

Gren, as for the injectors you've got. There are likely numbers on the side someplace that can be traced on the internet. If not, RC Injector service and others can check them out for you and make sure they are clean and flow within a certain range.
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vdubr928  



Joined: 26 Jun 2011
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Location: Colorado Springs

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I see some pictures of the bung setup? That came out wrong.

What about in the intake runner? Plug the head holes and spay into the intake? Just looking at options. If this car has a bad fuel distributor im going ms.
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