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Why Not just keep your regular engine?
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924 turbo  
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On 2002-06-20 11:18, Cbass wrote:
I think this is what sets the Ferrari people apart from the Porsche people.{snip}


Do you even know enough "Ferrari people" to make this claim? Or even "Porsche people", for that matter? I don't know that "most" Boxster and 996 owners are looking for the next upgrade. Neither do you.
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Cbass  
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't referring specifically to 996/986 people. There are fairly few Ferraris in my town, I only see a F355 or two running around. I have gotten up close to two, they are running factory wheels, factory exhaust, and I listened to them both start up, and they sound exactly the same. I see Ferraris whenever I am in Vancouver, parked out side of Starbucks, the Chan Centre, the Playhouse, the Orpheum... They are not modified in any visible or audible way.

As for the Porsche people, I lurk on quite a few forums, and most of the people there are trying to modify their car in some way, be it a 911/930/964/993, or a 914, a 924, a 944, a 968... I see all sorts of ideas going around.

The 924 is a good platform for modifications, including engine swaps. I think the fact is though, that most 924 owners are 924 owners because a 968 or 911 is out of their price range. It is not especially likely that a large number of people on this board have the time, equipment, or money to put a non 924 motor in their car. This doesn't mean it can't be done, as I am in contact with several people who have put different kinds of engines in 924s. I have seen pictures, detailed swap info, and even seen video of moving non 2.0 powered 924s.
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924 turbo  
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996/986 people are Porsche people too. And as far as lurking on the Porsche boards, do you think that has something to do with them being gearheads? Most of the people on the discussion boards are young and interested in mods. Pretty bad cross-section if you ask me.
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gohim  
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta agree with Jon, when it comes to Jay from DST.

Jay used to be a regular Poster on the RennList, till most people started ignoring him. He has a 78 924 which he tells people is a 82, because he has made so many "improvements" to the car. I don't know anyone who has ever seen the car run.

Jay has stiffed a number of people over the years who sent him money both on the RennList, and eBay.

Jay has stiffed me a couple times, when he failed to show up or pay me for parts that he contacted me to purchase from me.

Jay knows very little about Porsches. At one time he used to email, phone, and IM me constantly, asking questions about how to do simple procedures. When I questioned as to how he could promote himself as a Master porsche Mechanic, when he didn't own the tools, or the Manuals, and had no experience working on the car, he uttered a number of four letter words and bombarded me me mail address with obscene messages. I had to block him from my email, and contact his many ISPs to complain, and get him to stop.

At the time, Jay was soliciting a job as a Porsche Mechanic, and engine rebuilding work on the RennList. He doesn't have any of the necessary specialized tools like the P9201 Belt Tension Gauge.

Would you really take your car or engine to someone to work on it, when he admits that he doesn't even own the tools, or the Workshop Manual to do the job properly?

Should you beleive the advise handed out by someone who is IMing someone else to ask how to perform the procedure that you are asking him about?

Should you buy something from someone who changes his email address and screen name constantly to avoid the people that he owes parts to after taking their money?
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numbers  
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody that thinks German cars don't have tuners sure hasn't been to Germany. There are tuners that specialize in Porsches, BMW's and Mercedes, and the VW tuners are on every corner. And most of these guys use the same formula that American hotrodders always have, you take the bigger engine out of a bigger model and put it into a smaller model. If you don't think Porsche owners do it, just read Excellence some time. About half of the tech questions are about "what engine should I upgrade my 911 too?"
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Cbass  
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So very true, numbers. I don't know Jay, so I can't add anything to that.

I do agree that I am getting exposed to the more tuner friend Porsche people. I have not heard of one guy doing custom mods to his Ferrari. I know there are tuner companies out there that do stuff for Ferraris, but I have never seen a tuned Ferrari, aside from factory racers.
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Richard  
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why am I feeling that the turbo guys are out to prove that they got the superior car, the pinnacle of perfection.

Looky here, this is America, land of the free. If someone wants to spend their disposable income on an engine swap, than let her rip. It does not have to make sense or be economicaly feasable.

I've also been hearing this rubbish about fine German machinery for 30+ years. I got more trash BMW parts in my basement then you can shake a stick at. How about an engine that you have to totaly tear down to clean the oil slingers or trash the crank or whimpy drive splines that self destruct. The Germans are no better than anyone else in design. Their genuis is convincing us stupid Americans that they are. God how I hate it when a marque is raised to godly standards. They are just machines boys, relax, and enjoy the show.

So have at it guys, keep up the good work!

P.S. Maybe they just don't want to buy a 944 or 951 or whatever. Maybe they just like to tinker.
P.P.S. It is not you stinkin' money anyway!

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larso  
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I congratulate Germans on, is the anti-rust. 1980-on porsches seem to be like fiberglass! They don't rust!!

As for German engineering:

-The seats in all old porsches are crap

-The dashes are crap

-The blocks are bulletproof? so are honda's and fords. The 924 block isn't any more bulletproof than an american iron block.

-The gauges are tacky. Green and yellow gauges? Just stick with white, Germany!

-The doors fall off because of cheap engineering. the door stays and hinges are not strong enough.

-The door handles are crappy. 9 out of ten audis or porsches I see at scrap yards, have crappy broken junk door handles.

German engineering my ass. Like I say, the 924 is a great package, and it just so happens that the car is a blast to drive.

I'm not here to complain about the 924. It makes a great package: It handles superb, and the rust protection on the 1980 and newer ones is superb. I'm just saying that german engineering isn't anything perfect....German handling and looks always nice....I don't know what those Germans did to make 924s not rust...it's not just the Zinc coating, because other cars have zinc on them too...but I think it was actually a stupid move on Germany's part! I mean it's great for the buyer...The longer a car lasts, the more chance that the owner will keep his car for longer. Then the manufacturer will go out of business eventually if they keep this up. There is a reason why car's rust! It's not that we aren't smart enough to figure out how to stop rusting, it's that the car manufacturers need to make money.

So I guess Porsche's stupidity of making a car that does not rust...is good, and I am 100 percent sure, that american car manufactures could make a car that doesn't rust too. But why don't they? not because they aren't good engineers...because they want more money. Porsche has such a high resale value that they can afford to let there cars "not rust". American cars are cheap, so they want them to fall apart in 10 years, so the owner has to buy a new one. Of course the 924 falls apart in 10 years, in other areas...seats, dash etc. So, you either live with a crappy design one place, or live with a crappy design another place. Porsche has a crappy design on the inside, america and japan has a crappy design on the outside. And no, the 924 engine is not extremely bulletproof compared to other engines. SO don't say "but my 924 is german engineered, my block is bulletproof, honda's aren't" .There are lots of engines that have just as bulletproof blocks as the 924 does. If the 924 engine was so "German engineered" to perfection, then it wouldn't have bearing failure, cam oiler tube failure, turbo failure, manifold cracking, immature hot start problems etc. etc. Just my opinion. I am a strong believer of "WHATEVER WORKS, WORKS" The 924 works, it isn't some gift from god on the design of the engine and interior part....but it doesn't rust, and looks nicer than any japanese copy (RX7). It works if you spend time on it, and looks, and handles, my reasons for having one....not because it's German engineered. If Mazda's looked like the 924, and the 924 looked like a mazda, I'd take the mazda any day. It would have longer lasting seats, less bearing failure (oil pressure), parts would be cheap, etc.

Lars
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larso  
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also yeah, as for turbocharged cars. Screw em. Formula one cars are NA. The ultimate car is a formula one car. So hey, turbocharging is good, but it's not perfection. A fast NA car is perfection...Turbochargers just require less research and time. Porsche uses turbochargers to get power, because it's easier. They could have made the 924 into a high performance NA car, but it would have cost them a bitch...and they new that a turbocharger would be a quicker, easier way to get power out of the 924. It's great on the highway, and great for endurance, but for very tight and skillful handling situations...turbochargers are kind of obsolete...Formula one cars, need to handle superb, and have a nice steady acceleration so that the driver does not spin out and hit a cement wall...no turbochargers. Yeah, I'm sure you can beat a formula one car in your turbocharged 930. Turbocharging isn't king, it's just one of those things that is an easy way to get power, but mind you uneven power. SO step off your high horse, and just enjoy the 924, and 924 turbo because:

A) it doesn't rust
B) it looks cool
C) it works, if you spend time on it and know what you are doing
D) it handles great, but not in parking lots.
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924 turbo  
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On 2002-06-23 16:27, Richard wrote:
Why am I feeling that the turbo guys are out to prove that they got the superior car, the pinnacle of perfection.


The 931 is a better platform to start from, even if you're doing an engine swap. It's more likely to have the disc brakes from the get-go, and it has a stronger torque tube and transmission. The 931 is by no means the pinnacle of perfection, but it's a very capable car. Since most people here have never driven a 931, maybe it would be in their best interests to do so before tearing a 924 to pieces for an engine swap. Many people here would be very happy with a 931 (and maybe a boost controller), especially if they have an irrational love for the 924 platform/body.

Quote:
Looky here, this is America, land of the free. If someone wants to spend their disposable income on an engine swap, than let her rip. It does not have to make sense or be economicaly feasable.


No one said they couldn't do it. Just maybe that they shouldn't. Some people are going to be pro and others con. If everyone here was rah-rah cheering every time someone brought up an engine swap, some (young? naïve?)people might get in over their heads. Then again, people might find out how much it really costs! Hmm, maybe that's a good thing.

Quote:
P.S. Maybe they just don't want to buy a 944 or 951 or whatever. Maybe they just like to tinker.
P.P.S. It is not you stinkin' money anyway!


If someone really wants to swap an engine into their 924, I say go for it. But don't say you weren't warned. It will be quite expensive, take a long time, have lots of problems, and it may be very problematic for some time after the swap is "complete". Many people who start the task will never finish it. They may have been much happier just driving their 924 as it was.

Of course, people who actually do complete the swap won't care how much they spent, or how long it took once they get it out on the road. And maybe a price can't be put on that kind of satisfaction.

But it's a long, hard, expensive road between starting the project and driving it. And those hours could be spent driving a very fine stock or mildly modified sports car. For god's sake, you might be driving a regular car in the interim! Ouch!
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Richard  
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good points and well taken. And I hope you realize my tone is really light-hearted about this topic. Just having fun tossing different perspectives around.

It's funny though, the airplane culture that I'm in. Home builders will spend anywhere from 2000 hours on up (that is one year of continous work as a minimum) to make the airplane of their dreams. Often major systems will be modified, entirely different engines will be fitted. In that perspective these 924 engine swaps are child's play.
My point being that once someone gets that gleam in their eye, it is near impossible to stop them. Logic is useless. They will pour way too much money into the project for what it is worth on the street or what alternative they could have bought. The real worth is the journey, the satisfaction. Your just can't keep a good gearhead down. Many will fail. There are probably thousands if not tens of thousands car rebuild or engine swap projects covered with a tarp in California alone. These will just mold away or get sold to the next bright-eyed person.

But hey, you know all this. I agree, let them be warned....but this forum will probably never go away.
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Cbass  
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lars, wanna know why F1 cars are NA? That's the formula! It used to be 2.0 Turbo motors too, and they made more power...

Richard, you said it better than I could. If you want to put a new engine in a 924, great! If you can afford/do it, by all means, do it! If you can't, dream on, but don't try to "realistically debunk" somebody else's goals with your beliefs.
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numbers  
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it Cbass. If FIA allowed turbo's starting tomorrow, you would see them on the grid next week. All of the major teams would switch immediately. horsepower is horsepower, it doesn't matter how you make it.
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Cbass  
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lars, I challenge you to make a streetable NA motor that makes 260lbft from 2.2liters, at 1950rpm, on 94 RON pump gas.

Oh yeah, it also makes 230hp from 5500-7000rpm...
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larso  
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I don't want to. That's the thing. What's the point of street performance.
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