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931 engine into 924
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7806
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porsche have dialed 1.1bar for 285HP on 8.5:1 CR. All the engine differences between the GTS cars and the 931 are to increase reliability.

Reliability is relative, for one reliability is to hold a few 1/4mile runs while for others is to hold years of abuse.

I dont think 300hp is easy but i dont think its hard.
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11350
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
I dont think 300hp is easy


My one and only point.

Fasteddie313 wrote:
WTF are you doing dinking around under a Bar of boost?


I'd like to reserve my answer on this question to a later time.
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924-76  



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
My car @ 250ish is just a guess, but how much power do you or anyone else estimate a 2.0 with a k26/6 compressor @ 1Bar is making with excellent charge cooling?

Based on the stock specs of 150hp at 6.2lbs boost (correct me if I`m wrong), I would say 205-210hp.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1489
Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running 33% more boost, have a more efficient intercooler, and a bigger more efficient turbo than the CGT that makes 210. I expect I make a bit more

Rasta Monsta wrote:
morghen wrote:
I dont think 300hp is easy


My one and only point.


Rasta, I did not say "you can make 300hp easy" on any 924. It's a lot of work and some $$, or a lot of $$ and little work if you happen to be a sleazy lawyer or something..
But with either combination you should easily be able to make 250-300+ hp..

What I said is, to rephrase, "With a turbo 924 with proper fuel/engine management like EFI (hard work done) you should be able to easily make 250-300+ Hp, depending on how ambitious you are"..

And I stand by that statement..

Rasta Monsta wrote:


Fasteddie313 wrote:
WTF are you doing dinking around under a Bar of boost?


I'd like to reserve my answer on this question to a later time.


Yes rasta I know you are sharpening your best to stab me in the back with as soon as I pop a HG or worse. Hang in there, it's bound to happen and you'll get your chance. Must be killing you that it hasn't yet..


And I'm the
Rasta Monsta wrote:

P***y.

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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddie, there is no reason for being mad at Rasta
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel sorry for the OP. This thread has gotten so far off topic.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
you have to ask yourself, why put all the good bits into the NA chassis???


OP's chassis has "Full 951 Brakes/Suspension" and even gullwing doors love em or hate em.. Thats quite a chassis and it seems to me OP is a serious modder..

He wants a turbo engine and is also interested in it being a "cost effective" swap. Swapping in a turbo engine with all 931 OEM components doesn't seem all that "cost effective" to me, that's a whole lot of work for +50hp and it's leaving a lot of potential on the table, it's not 1979 any more.

To be more cost effective and labour effective I suggest taking care of obsolete components while he's at it, going with good engine management in the first place solves the wiring issue of the swap. It is also likely that his donors CIS may/will need work $$ and we know that his NA CIS is no good on a 931 engine. If there are any problems with OP's donor's CIS then going EFI will be even more cost effective not having to spend on the CIS makes EFI relatively cheaper.

So going with EFI in the first place solves a lot of problems and though it costs more it makes it much more cost effective because along with an IC (which is cheap but hard work) he gets +125hp out of his efforts EASY because 250hp with EFI and IC is EASY..

By "easy" I mean that to be a very realistic power goal, yes it is work but that's the fun part, the $$ part is the not so fun part...

So now almost triple OPs gains from a measly +50hp to +125hp makes it a much more cost and labor effective project because now he's really getting something for his work and money..

Again OP seems like quite a serious modder so he may even be a bit more ambitious than that yet, and this is where the 250-300+ comes in..

Now OP has EFI and an IC on very likely a 2664 turbo and can EASILY make 250hp like that.

A bit more ambition from there lets see..
Likely OP will need to rebuild that turbo sometime anyway right? While he's at it go with a bit bigger compressor, from a cheap /6 compressor to a k27 compressor depending again on ambition gets him headroom. That along with upgrading his HG and head studs now he's ready for more..

Now with the recipe of EFI, IC, big turbo, and HG/studs OP should be able to go from 250hp up to 300+hp if he is ambitious..
All this has been boost work and not much engine work, to go further than this then you have to start getting into engine work and the cost:benefit ratio starts to get you diminishing returns and 250-300+ is likely enough.

This is on topic as it pertains to making this swap cost effective. Cost effectiveness is not about what it costs but rather what the cost:benefit ratio is. Tapping into the potential makes it much more cost effective and worthwhile..


Mad at rasta? Sick of being trolled..

If you see in this thread the only semi-useful post rasta made has to do with "The path of least resistance" and he opines that just a straight up 931 swap is "a herculean task", naysaying, and I solve the "different wiring requirements".
All of his other posts in this thread have been only to troll me and try to make me look foolish. What he is most famous for, trolling, me especially, in this and many many other threads, and even trolls on other boards (not me yet).

I am also of the opinion that guys like him give the 924 a bad name because all he ever has to say about them is how shit the 2.0 is and you can never make power with them which obviously IMO is a load of BS.. Lets just ignore all those who make whopping power with the 2.0 and continue of the opinion that they are junk, so says rasta.

If anything we should be proving that the 2.0 is not shit (because it isn't) and that it can make great power (which it can). Forged crank, huge bearings, iron block, this engine is perfect for massive boost but you're not going to get there following "The path of least resistance"..

"The path of least resistance" is for losers, period.. Whether it be engines, landscaping, faith, or even career "The path of least resistance" isn't going to get you shit.

I refuse to be run out of here or anywhere by a troll so either he knocks it off or there is going to be a lot more of this because I will stand up for myself as I am no fool.
Young, imaginative, unorthodox, and foolish at times yes, but I am no fool.
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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

j03k64 wrote:
Can you refer me to the thread/s on modifying the OEM CIS up to 250+?


Let's clarify something here.. I do not believe modifying OEM CIS up to and beyond 250 hp is a good idea. I have mine running at 1 bar of boost on my tweaked OEM CIS (whatever HP that may be) but it is dangerous and not a good way to go about it and I am in the process or replacing it myself even though I have been relatively successful with it so far.

Adding FrankenCIS control to an OEM 931 CIS system is a better idea however unproven, in theory it should be good to around 330 hp by my measurements and give great control of AFRs across the board at any boost, cruist to idle, just like EFI, but is new and unproven.

This is not the direction I am going because I don't want even a 330hp cap on my car, my fueling project is guaranteed good to 500hp and likely as much as 700hp, I'll never use all of that but will never have to worry about it again eiher..
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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15489
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
Thats quite a chassis and it seems to me OP is a serious modder


You don't have nearly enough history on this board to have a clue how ridiculous your assumption is

Notice, if you will, that sparky's original query was posted 5 years ago and was effectively ended with a single, accurate statement by Rasta. A relative newcomer (j03k64) revived the thread with a simple question, which is essentially "why can't I just drop a 931 powerplant in my NA chassis". My response to j03k64 was not as pithy as Rasta's but essentially clarified the notion that dropping a 931 into a 924 is not easy, not cheap, and almost certainly not worth the effort.

I don't mind reading your sometimes innovative, sometimes informative, and almost always entertaining and auspicious aspirations. I merely fail to see what FrankenCIS, 700HP, or any of the other rabbit holes you introduced to this thread have to do with the original question.
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11350
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
I am also of the opinion that guys like him give the 924 a bad name because all he ever has to say about them is how shit the 2.0 is and you can never make power with them which obviously IMO.


Yep, I definitely give the 924 a bad name. I built one of the best 931s in the US (which has been my reliable DD since you were in grade school), I race a 924s, I have another 924 project underway, and I have 10k posts on the Board, a few of which have been helpful to others.

My concern with you, Skippy, is that you are a heavy participant, and make comments better suited to a "tuner" board than here. "300+ hp easy" (and now 700hp) makes the toofah board look like it's populated by dumb asses.

Sorry, op....

/rant
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  • Shaggy (1980 931) - Got Boost?
  • Red (1987 924S) - Pro44/Spec944
  • Weiße Scheiße (1987 924S) - In Progress


Last edited by Rasta Monsta on Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7806
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:
I have another 924 project underway, and I have 10k posts on the Board


More posts about the project please.
damn i now realize you have 10k and i have like half of that...hmm..you are verbally inclined


Freddie, all these guys have modded 931s, some more some less but all of us have kept the cars running for many years. To be honest big numbers starts to be less of an interest after a while. You grow up and accept your 924 for what it is or you made it be.

I honestly admire your drive and i do hope you get that V8 CIS working...it would be a step forward for vintage performance enhancement.
But man...you have to relax a bit, none of the guys here are bad in any way(ok maybe two but they are not dan or rasta)...do your thing and prove what you want to prove(by doing and you're good at doing)...but dont waste your time hating...if you make this work you'll see what a great comunity this is.

Rubishlist sucks balls compared to this, trust me !
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Last edited by morghen on Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1489
Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok lets assume that j03k64 is the OP then..

j03k64 wrote:

I figure if I'm going to rebuild it; why not upgrade?
Man I like this guy's style, sounds like me..

Like sparky, the 931 swap seems like a very and justifiably reasonable option. I don't have a computer box in my car under the steering wheel, the donor 931 and my other car (a 1980 NA) do have the magic box in it. What's it even do (CIS + computer = WHY)?

What's different with the wiring between the NA and Turbo systems? The turbo waste gate system is mechanical right?


I solve all his wiring problems, do it right the first time and he needs none of that computer box, lambda system, both of my recommendations replace all of that..

j03k64 wrote:
ideola wrote:
The box you're referring to is the Lambda / O2 system.


Bummer! (no computer under the steering wheel)

noticed the over boost protection switch and fuel cut off circuit.


Solves all that too..

ideola wrote:
the notion that dropping a 931 into a 924 is not easy, not cheap, and almost certainly not worth the effort.


I agree that it's not worth the effort for +50hp, unless your going to do it right the first time and get +125+.

What other choice do you have?
1. swap 931 and tune 2. turbo NA and tune 3. N2O 4. nothing

I have read Sparky's posts before and recognised him though I did not at first notice the timestamps. I thought it was a fresh one and I was talking to the guy with the highly modified car.

None of that makes any of the stuff I said wrong, but admittedly somewhat less applicable.

FrankenCIS and 700HP have a lot to do with my statements as they are detail of my specific application that is not just some aspiration, and the fact that you cannot safely build real HP without FrankenCIS or EFI for accurate fuel control, which all leads back to the fact that a 931 swap is not really worth the effort without such control in one form or another.

I did not comment on the drivetrain swap aspect of it because frankly I don't know all that much about that part of it.

Regardless of any alleged contextual errors, the facts of my statements are undisputed.
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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1489
Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:

I built one of the best 931s in the US
Guarantee mine is faster
I race a 924s,
Faster than that one too.
I have 10k posts on the Board, a few of which have been helpful to others.
Very few IMO. In my experience you have actually been reluctant to divulge useful information, to me atleast. Unless I'm wrong on something or you think my hose is gonna get rubbed wrong..

To be fair I have learned some things from your older posts, not so much for your more recent stuff..
Mind you I have read ridiculous amounts of threads on this board.


My concern with you, Skippy, is that you are a heavy participant, and make comments better suited to a "tuner" board than here.
Yeah, tuner boards actually have some innovation, are not stuck in the 80's, and they make power too..

My posts are very often filled with too much information and detail if anything, and on the absolute cutting edge of 931 tuning, successful to boot..


"300+ hp easy" maker the toofah board look like it's populated by dumb asses.
Sure does when you're still relying on taking my same statement out of context to make some semblance of a point.

Sorry, op....
You want a pissing match you got one.. Quit harassing me and all will be well..

/rant

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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1489
Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

morghen wrote:
prove what you want to prove(by doing and you're good at doing)...but dont waste your time hating...if you make this work you'll see what a great comunity this is.


Being pitted in a match of words against an educated lawyer sucks, words arent exactly my strong point, not too shabby but eh..

I have to prove something and stand up for myself if I want to be part of this community, which I very much do, it's a shame, but I can't let myself be treated badly.



Once again, RASTA, quit being a douche to me and all will be well, that's all I ask, quit trying to degrade me at every opportunity and we can get along..
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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1489
Location: Not Detriot - NMI

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So rasta posted something IMO in his words
Rasta Monsta wrote:
better suited to a "tuner" board than here.


And I click quote and "there is no such post".. Now it's gone like magic, like I've never scene happen before..

Funny thing is I grabbed a screenshot..


LOLZ

I know of no way to totally delete a post like that, and the thread is even moved back down the list of "posts since last visit" like it never happened..

Either there is a way to do that that I don't know of, rasta is magic or a hacker, or admin did it.. Wonder wich..
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1980 931S - LSD - FMIC - GTS fuel - hobby
95 M3 manual coupe - summer DD
06 X5 3.0 auto - winter DD
01 RS25 coupe - 90% Retired
06 MDX - bought for mom to DD
81 Rambler BBC 454
97 Tercel long retired/sitting
77 gs750 - 95 300ex - 89 blaster
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