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Which is the true 924 GTP
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dreamgts  



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Which is the true 924 GTP Reply with quote

I think we all know about this model prototype yet some research I did recently seemd to confuse me.

Its clear that the GTP's were entered at least twice in Le Mans, yet seeing close ups of the engine bay I have seen 3 different engine set ups.

According to 'history' the GTP had a turbo 2 litre modified engine normaly found on a normal 924 (???) I have seen a model with a 2 lit engine, another one which seems to be a 944 2.5litre and the most surprising was one with what seems to be a 16 valve head engine.

i have pics to show if someone can post them.

So which is the true GTP???

dreamgts
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Grenadiers  



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/3464/Porsche-924-Carrera-GTP.html

http://www.deutschnine.com/porsche-transaxle/porsche-924-carrera-gtp-gtr-le-mans.php

http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschista/4622994138/

http://www.supercars.net/Pics?v=y&s=c&id=1590&p=1980_Porsche_924CarreraGTP1.jpg

http://944turbo.net/?page_id=57
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dreamgts  



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh I see your still interested in my posts Mr. Grenadier, thats good

The links you posted are exactly the ones I saw and read actualy. If one looks closely at the different cars, one can see 3 different type engines. I am quite sure but ready to be corrected that the original GTP had a 2 lit engine.

The pics I have show exactly what i stated in my opening thread post, Actually I was a bit surprised to see what seems to be a 16 valve head which actually was engineered way after the original GTP years (1980/81???) Also I read somwhere that there was a 944 based GTP? was this one of the original factory cars or was it privately owned/ entered since this version also seems to have raced in Le mans.

thanks
dreamgts
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Nein37  



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cars that raced at Le Mans in 1980 were actually 924 GTRs that were forced to race in GTP class since they were not yet homologated. All 3 of these cars had 2.0 liter engines like all 924GTRs. What is commonly referred to as the 924 GTP is the car that ran in 1981 with the 2.5 liter engine. Though many 944 owners like to rank this car as a 944 GTP it is in fact not. Besides its displacement, the engine has very little in common with the 944 engine and it raced on 924GTR running gear. It is considered THE 924 GTP since it was never homologated.
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dreamgts  



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nein37 wrote:
The cars that raced at Le Mans in 1980 were actually 924 GTRs that were forced to race in GTP class since they were not yet homologated. All 3 of these cars had 2.0 liter engines like all 924GTRs. What is commonly referred to as the 924 GTP is the car that ran in 1981 with the 2.5 liter engine. Though many 944 owners like to rank this car as a 944 GTP it is in fact not. Besides its displacement, the engine has very little in common with the 944 engine and it raced on 924GTR running gear. It is considered THE 924 GTP since it was never homologated.


Ok Nein37, lets just say for the sake of the argument that the 924 GTR's were in fact GTP ( or forced to be anyway) just to save on confusion.

Actually that was what i was trying to figure out, was the latter GTP a 924 or a 944, i can understand the GTP having a 2.5 engine since the 'S' version of the 924 was 2.5 lit, yet only the 944 had a 16 valve engine as far as I know, always ready to be corrected. Unless Porsche had developed a 16 valve head for the 2 lit that is, yet i am not aware of this. And it seems that the car with the BOSS logo had this 16 valve engine in it.

So are we saying here then that the ultimate 924 GTP was the version fitted with the 2.5 lit engine??????

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Nein37  



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saying the car commonly referred to as the 924 GTP is essentially a 924 GTR with a 16 valve, 2.5 liter engine. It was raced as a GTP and will always be a GTP since it was never homologated. Besides displacement and valve number, the 2.5 liter 16 valve engine used in the 924 GTP had very little in common with any porsche production engine. The 944 GTP is a misnomer, probably created by 944 owners who wish their car had a racing pedigree.

The BOSS car is the one and only 924 GTP... whether it was the ultimate or not is a matter of opinion. The highest placing 924 GTR in 1980 finished 6th at Le Mans, while the 1981 924 GTP finished 7th. Also in 1982 a 924 GTR on Goodyear street radials won its class.
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TJC  



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having some intimate knowledge of the 924 GTP history let me first say that there were two 924 works GTP's...chassis #924-005 and 924-006. 924-006 was the car that Jurgen Barth and Walter Rohrl drove to 7th place, 3rd in the GTP class, in 1981. The car also won the award for spending the least amount of time in the pits, 56 minutes...21 stops...over the 24 hour period. That race was also won by Porsche...a 936 driven by Jacky Ickx and Derek Bell.

924-005 was essentially the factory "mule" used extensively in testing for the race and it is this car that I have a fair amount of knowledge in since I was heavily involved in it's restoration at my shop in 1998. The engine, see avatar, was indeed a 2.5 litre turbocharged belt driven DOHC that is very unique. If memory serves me correctly Porsche only built 5 or 6 of these engines and I believe only 2, perhaps 3 exist today, one of which is in 005 and one in 006. This engine carries a cam cover that reads:
PORSCHE 944 LeMans.
The car was to be entered as a 944, but since the introduction of the production 944 was two weeks after the 1981 LeMans race it was entered as a 924 GTP instead...so our 944 brothers do have some credibility in thier claim for heritage, if that really matters to anyone .

The chassis and drivetrain is a bit more different than the earlier GTR cars in that it also carries a very unique gearbox, has 917 brakes, coilover suspension with titanium springs, aluminum torsion bar housing and some other bits. The engine bay is also stiffened differently than the GTR.

At some point this summer I hope to revive my old website and will post pictures of 005 during it's restoration which some of you may find interesting. I could go on and on about this car and 006, but will leave it there for now .
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stevekat  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 924 GTR's were based on our 2.0L Audi style engine. The GTP 924 'Boss' car, is based on a, or precursor to, the 944 style engine, at least as I recall.
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Nein37  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to know TJC.

Here is a link to an earlier thread that has links to good articles on the subject.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=22295&highlight=924gtp
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morghen  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's got it wrong? the 944 owes everything to the 924...actually the boxster does that too...and possibly so do all the other models that were built after the 924. The numerous sales of the 924 pulled Porsche out of a big pile of shit.

this is what i also found on the internet: 924 GTR were all 2.0L and the 924 GTP cars had the 2.5L 16V turbo engines and spelled LeMans on the cam cover.

I always saw the 924 GTP as a prototype for the 944 16V and the 944 turbo. They probably designed those GTP race cars so they can later detune the engines and sell them as 944 16V and 944 turbo.


LATER EDIT:
i just thought i'd explain myself a bit why i said that the 944 owes everything to the 924.
Porsche didn't wake up one day thinking...hmm...lets make a 2.5L trans axle....their idea of a trans-axle at the given time was the 928..which didn't sell that well compared to the 924/944.
944 owes everything to the 924 because if that story with VW commissioning Porsche to design a sports car wouldn't have happened the 944 probably would have never existed.
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Nein37  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were concepts used in those 924GTP engines that made it to production cars, but the engines themselves were pretty unique. TJC you've been very close to them... any comment. Was the 2.5 block the same as the 2.5 944 block???
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TJC  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nein37 wrote:
TJC wrote:

The car was to be entered as a 944, but since the introduction of the production 944 was two weeks after the 1981 LeMans race it was entered as a 924 GTP instead...so our 944 brothers do have some credibility in thier claim for heritage, if that really matters to anyone.


Why would the fact that the 944 not being in production yet have any bearing on its name at entrance? Its a proto-type. My point being that if the engine had little to do with the 944 lump, it was in a 924 chassis and shared zero parts with the upcoming 944... how exactly could it be considered a 944GTP???

And it actually does matter to me. Why... well, the 944 guys tend to try and distance themselves from the 924, and crap on it as if their 944 doesn't owe most of its existance to it. Hell there are a number of Porsche publications that have the information about the 944s development completely wrong. Things like "the 944s bodywork is the result of many hours testing in the wind tunnel", rather than, the entire front end of the 944 was pulled from the 924 Carrera GT. Plus, the suspension, brakes and transmission are the same as that of the 924 Turbo. I wonder why they didn't just call the 944 the 924GT???


The rules that dictate entries at LeMans are oft times very complicated and also somewhat confusing. The rule book itself, just for this one race, is huge. Since there was no official introduction of the 944 prior to the 1981 LeMans race, it could not be entered as a 944 as Porsche originally intended...them's the rules. If you re-read my post you will not see me referring to this car as a 944 GTP...I'm only clarifying what the original poster wanted to know about the 924 GTP.

Actually, the engine does have similarities to the 944 engine as it used counter rotating shafts to offset the inherant vibrations in a four cylinder engine just as the production 944 engine has. The cylinder head design was also a forerunner to the 16 valve 944 engine. The engine also "borrowed" from the 928 engine design. It is important to note that this exercise was an evolutionary design for future production vehicles and as Porsche has always done, new vehicles are given new numerical code names or types.
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TJC  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nein37 wrote:
There were concepts used in those 924GTP engines that made it to production cars, but the engines themselves were pretty unique. TJC you've been very close to them... any comment. Was the 2.5 block the same as the 2.5 944 block???






The engine blocks have their similarities, but they are not exactly the same as I remember...it's been 12 years since I worked on the car and I've lost a few brain cells since then...getting older .

Unfortunately the engine was shipped to a fellow that used to work for Andial to rebuild and I didn't get to see the internals...wish I did, but that's another story.
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Harm  



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Which is the true 924 GTP Reply with quote

Another Myth Dealt With.

Nice pictures TJC!

Regards, Harm.
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TJC  



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Which is the true 924 GTP Reply with quote

Harm wrote:
Another Myth Dealt With.

Nice pictures TJC!

Regards, Harm.


Thank's Harm.
Here's a couple more for now, I'll post more of the build shots later on.





We started on this car about 4 1/2 months prior to the 1998 Monterey Historics which was our target debut. We began with the bare tub that was acquired earlier by the owner from Vasek Polak's collection. The parts from this car (engine, drivetrain, suspension etc.) were used on another car, a GTR, that also had to be acquired to put 005 whole again. Our Aussie friends may remember the car as it was campaigned by Alan Hamilton down under! That car was bought "whole" and had to be disassembled and the bits rebuilt before we could start putting 005 back together.

Although the owner, Jim Edwards, and I worked furiously on the car it became apparent that with my racing commitments that we were running out of time and although we were close to being finished we decided to enlist the help of my friend Bevan Weston and the car was taken to his shop for he and his crew to complete in the week or so prior to the Monterey event.

The car did make it to Monterey, but unfortunately did not compete, as it would not start once it got there. As the article in Excellence points out there was an electrical problem in the ignition system that could not be cured at the time. I and my friend Bob West, who some of you may be familiar with, worked very hard to try to locate the glitch, and even the factory Porsche folks who were in attendence that weekend (Porsche was the honored marque that year and many of the factory mechanics were there to take care of the museum cars) were baffled. That is sometimes the problem with old prototypes and one off bits! It was doubly unfortunate since Jurgen Barth was to drive the car.

On the bright side however, I did get to meet Jurgen, whom I still correspond with on occassion, and also Derek Bell, a very interesting man indeed! Lots of history in those two fellows.
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