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ic932
Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 1104 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I think Paul's expierence should suffice.
don't forget, there is a reason why the 931 was dropped in favour of the 944. Realiability must of been a factor. That extra 500cc + EFI with similar performance figures doesn't seem a bad trade off? And all this in a CGT pressed steel body.......Credit where credit's due, compare the 82 model 931 with the new 82 model 944. I wonder which one you would of choosen?
BIG edit.. compare the 924 to the 944 and the 931 to the 951. |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15548 Location: Spring Lake MI
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think Paul's experience is atypical.
Maybe Paul is lucky, or maybe Paul is that good. Not everybody will be that lucky OR skilled, so IMO it's not good advice to skip or shortcut on factory recommended maintenance intervals, particularly on the 2.5L motor.
That said, assuming you had a 931 and a 924S/944 in roughly equivalent shape, the latter will always cost more than the former to maintain to factory specs by simple fact that it is a more complex engine, and has more parts that are higher priced and require special tools to repair (timing belt tensioning and OPRV alignment tool are just two examples). And have you priced out a COMPLETE rebuild kit for a 2.0L long block vs. a 2.5L long block? 2.5L is nearly DOUBLE the cost in terms of parts, and my figures are at near-wholesale prices.
The only area where I see the economic argument favoring the 924S/944 is that it is a few years younger than the 931, and so restoration costs might be less than on a 931.
It would be more helpful to do a comparison of these cars based on the following:
Cost of Factory-recommended preventive maintenance
Cost of complete engine tear-down and rebuild
HP per dollar comparison of performance enhancements
Cost of restoration
The only category I see the 924S/944 possibly winning is the last one. _________________ erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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ic932
Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 1104 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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ideola wrote: | I think Paul's experience is atypical. |
No it ain't, only on this board to you hear about anal cambelt changes.
The 924S section is woeful to say the least. It's not a reflection of 924S/44 ownership in the slightest.
You can't add hp gains into the equation unless you wanna compare the 931 to the 951. Then you gonna be pissin' in the wind.
To compare the 931 with the 944 (turbo vs NA) is an embaressment for the 931. |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11724 Location: PacNW
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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ic932 wrote: | To compare the 931 with the 944 (turbo vs NA) is an embaressment for the 931. |
Not my experience. I have tracked with 160 HP 944s, and sent them home weeping. _________________ Toofah King Bad
- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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924guy
Joined: 29 Dec 2003 Posts: 2088 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Rasta Monsta wrote: | ic932 wrote: | To compare the 931 with the 944 (turbo vs NA) is an embaressment for the 931. |
Not my experience. I have tracked with 160 HP 944s, and sent them home weeping. |
ditto... _________________ Eric
78 924
82 931 SE "smokey"
99' VehiCross
Y2K Honda Insight
http://www.cardomain.com/id/924Guy
Performance by Pasha |
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Carrera
Joined: 13 Nov 2009 Posts: 143 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Cédric wrote: | Thanks for the answer, I suspected this.. Car parts cost about the same, even when the car value goes down. Over here we are not "spoiled" with the prices on cars and parts that you are over there. Even though lots of 924s have had a rough life here its not nearly as bad as in the us. Old cars seems not to be so appreciated, cars seems to have a shorter life on the whole.
Did you know that i buy some parts from the us(made in germany) for half the price compared to here. If I buy a clutch today here (pressure plate+release bearing+clutch disc) its 1226$, and that is from a cheap store. Beat that. I could buy 2 931s in the us for that price |
The price difference really is the big thing
A $300 clutch sounds of cource expensive if you've bought a half decent car for $600...
Here on this side of the pond prices are "slightly" different. In the biggest German car sale portal, mobile.de, the cheapest 931 is priced at 2.980€, thats about $4.000. The Germans sell non-running "restauration project" 931's for 5.000€+, thats about $6.750. A good running daily driver is easily worth $10.000.
... suddenly the part prices don't seem all that bad
I intend to get my car in very nice, not concours, condition and it will cost me in total more than $10k, however that is still less than half of what a same era half decent 911 would cost _________________ 931 S2, 1981 |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8815 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I actually corresponded briefly with the author before the article went in; tried to give him some decent information. Obviously, it only went so far; clearly seemed like he'd already drawn his conclusions and only needed some supporting documentation.
You'll notice I did manage to get us listed in the linkage section at the end...
I'd hoped to have more discussion with him, but he never got back to me again...
Yeah, I was a bit disappointed by it all... _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15548 Location: Spring Lake MI
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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ic932 wrote: | only on this board to you hear about anal cambelt changes. |
You apparently haven't spent much time at Rennlist, Pelican or Clark's Garage. _________________ erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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flosho
Joined: 01 Jul 2004 Posts: 3155 Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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lol, question is: who buys a $600 car and doesn't expect to replace a major component at some point? _________________ [This Space For Rent] |
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turboquattro
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Posts: 133 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Carrera wrote: |
In the biggest German car sale portal, mobile.de, the cheapest 931 is priced at 2.980€, thats about $4.000. The Germans sell non-running "restauration project" 931's for 5.000€+, thats about $6.750. A good running daily driver is easily worth $10.000.
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There is a difference between what people want and what people actually get for their cars.
Some of these cars on mobile.de have been there for last 6 months (I check every week).
I had my car there as well and on ebay.de and even though my car was better than most advertised, the best offer I got was 2500 Euro.
Mobile.de can be very misleading that way.
Hope this helps. |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 9491 Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Rasta Monsta wrote: | ic932 wrote: | To compare the 931 with the 944 (turbo vs NA) is an embaressment for the 931. |
Not my experience. I have tracked with 160 HP 944s, and sent them home weeping. |
I've done the same in a 924S, not to mention having a 964 spin out trying to follow me out of a turn.
My observation is that if you start a racing season with an equally prepared 931 and 924S, the S will finish the season, the 931 will need something. _________________ White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 9491 Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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ideola wrote: | I think Paul's experience is atypical.
Maybe Paul is lucky, or maybe Paul is that good. Not everybody will be that lucky OR skilled, so IMO it's not good advice to skip or shortcut on factory recommended maintenance intervals, particularly on the 2.5L motor.
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I've said this before, if you brought a 924S to my shop and asked for a FOES, the only way I would guarantee the job is if I provided all the parts and only if the complete job was done. Yes I have all the tools if I take enough time to look for them! I posted pictures the last time I replaced the belts on the white ghost.
My personal car is another matter and I don't replace anything until it needs it.
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=29156&highlight=belts _________________ White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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Paul
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 9491 Location: Southeast Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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ideola wrote: | I think Paul's experience is atypical.
Maybe Paul is lucky, or maybe Paul is that good. Not everybody will be that lucky OR skilled, so IMO it's not good advice to skip or shortcut on factory recommended maintenance intervals, particularly on the 2.5L motor.
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Have we ever determined what the official factory maintenance schedule is on a 924S? _________________ White 87 924S "Ghost"
Silver 98 986 3.6l 320 HP "Frank N Stein"
White 01 986 "Christine"
Polar Silver 02 996TT. "Turbo"
Owned and repaired 924s since 1977
Porsche: It's not driving, it's therapy. |
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ideola
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 Posts: 15548 Location: Spring Lake MI
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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I was always under the impression that complete FOES was recommended every 30K miles. _________________ erstwhile owner of just about every 924 variant ever made |
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ic932
Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 1104 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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ideola wrote: | I was always under the impression that complete FOES was recommended every 30K miles. |
FOES is only a term used by enthusiasts. Just apply a bit of logic Dan. What mickey mouse engineering would require the renewal of quality OEM seals every 2 years? Waterpump every 2 years? Rollers/tensioners (which have sustantial + quality bearings, BTW) every 2 years?
I'm suprised you suck up all this stuff and represent it as offical Porsche fact.
Dan, its just over enthusiastic advise. Don't take it as anything else but that. |
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