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GRM Trashes the 931
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Cedric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2600
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I though GRM were wiser than that...

An funny thing about car costs. On the swedish board that i´m spending some times at and in the 924/944 community these cars are seen as cheap cars to maintain and to buy, as do the 944. But when i get here they seem to be the most expensive cars on earth. how come?

1. Do people on this board only buy cars in terrible condition?

2. Do the majority of people on this board have lacking mechanical skills?

3. Do people here have less in their wallet ?

4. Do the members here not know what a car cost?

I appology if I´m being rude or mean, its not the point, I´m just curious about the big difference in opinion..
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924guy  



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 2088
Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fired off a letter to the editor as soon as i read that article, overall the entire piece was far below what I've come to expect from, them. it seemed to me the author used stats and references to prop up his theory that the 944 is the be all, end all of the line, by citing first year model stats instead of the improved last year model stats. it should have been titled "the 944 is awesome" rather than being presented as a 924/944/968 buyers guide.

As i mentioned in my letter, I dont think the writer has even even driven a 931.

I thought it would have much more prudent to mention the good qualities along with the perceived issues, and let the reader decide based on facts.

And while the short early 924 bit was full of praise, it also screamed to me how much the author seemed NOT to know, it was too fluffy.

we all know most of the issues that give the 931 a bad wrap result from user error. primarily failure to cool down the turbo after runs, and lack of maintenance. We also all know that with just a bit of tweaking, it will out perform a similar vintage n/a 911 easily. if these had been mentioned id of been okay with his assessment of "run away", as it is certainly true that most 931's haven't been maintained as they should have, and can easily be a nightmare to get back up to standard. But thats not what he said...

Finally, my biggest issue with the article was on the resources list, citing AA as a parts source. Given the amount of enthusiasts that have had issue with them, I feel strongly that they should of done a bit more homework before listing them. When one of the editors responded to my letter, i provided links of complaint threads on rennlist, and their ebay "feedback" to show this was more than a personal "beef." They are in contact with them, and hopefully their inquiry will open a few eyes internally in AA. I dont expect any changes on AA's behalf, but its nice that GRM staff were legitimately concerned once i let them know.

While i was disappointed with the article, the folks at GRM have shown allot of love for the 924, and are really good bunch who have done allot to encourage cheap and easily accessible racing and other auto events. they're allowed a mistake or two on occasion. Im going to keep reading them, no doubt.. might even send in an article or two, been a long, long time since ive published anything, so who knows.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15548
Location: Spring Lake MI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Cedric
I think part of the perception issue on the cost of these cars you may be encountering is largely a US attitude toward cars as being expendable appliances. Here's a perfect example.

Back in '05 I acquired a 1981 Weissach Special Edition. Perfectly running car, great body, decent interior. It had the usual assorted issues with electrics. It needed new shocks (which the PO included WITH the car when I bought it), and it also had a slipping clutch. I acquired the car for $600, and that INCLUDED having the PO trailer it from Cincinnati to Detroit, which is about a 5 hour one-way drive.

I subsequently sold the car to my nephew, thinking it was a GREAT way to get into a totally functional and salvageable car for very very low dollars. Something HE would enjoy driving, and could learn some vital life skills in terms of how to do basic repairs, how to drive a manual trans, how to deal with and maintain an older vehicle (as opposed to be GIVEN a late model car and expecting it to just run). You get the idea.

Well, the attitude of his step dad (my sister's husband) was this: "WHAATTT??? The clutch kit costs $300????? I only spent $600 on the car, I'm not going to spend $300 on a d*** clutch!!! Stupid German engineers, if it were an american car, I could have that clutch in and out in an afternoon for $50!"

I basically did ALL of the work to replace the clutch, which I more or less GAVE them for $150 because I had one sitting on the shelf, and also replaced all of the shocks for them. Then, when the headlights started malfunctioning, instead of taking the time to chase down the grounds, he sold the car for $800 to somebody else.

That's what you're dealing with here in the states, and I think a lot of that attitude is reflected here on the forum. Instead of seeing the car as a undervalued diamond in the rough that can still offer many years of reliable service and absolutely incredible driving experiences, many buyers are unwilling to put more into the car than what they paid for it. To me, that is a huge oversight!
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Cedric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the answer, I suspected this.. Car parts cost about the same, even when the car value goes down. Over here we are not "spoiled" with the prices on cars and parts that you are over there. Even though lots of 924s have had a rough life here its not nearly as bad as in the us. Old cars seems not to be so appreciated, cars seems to have a shorter life on the whole.

Did you know that i buy some parts from the us(made in germany) for half the price compared to here. If I buy a clutch today here (pressure plate+release bearing+clutch disc) its 1226$, and that is from a cheap store. Beat that. I could buy 2 931s in the us for that price
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope that letter to the editor pointed out the problem with their 2.5 FOES cost. . .$600? Wouldn't even buy the parts.
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 4040
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, you guys are the equivalent of standing in the back of the room bitching.

Want to help fix the stigma and get the magazine to listen to you?

Go sign up for their forum on their website and actually talk to the regular readers and the owners/operators of the magazine. They will typically respond there fairly quickly, you can also contact them through their website as well.

Then one or more of you write an article and submit it for their consideration, if it is well written with decent pictures they will likely print it and even pay you for it.

I can't talk as I'm in the middle of essentially rebuilding my 924 na from the ground up, I bought it for $650 and drove it home from Seattle and once I got it here I found so much wrong with it that it needed a lot of help.

My buddy just bought an 80 Turbo for $800, not running and it looks like a complete rebuild of the hydraulics, fluid, vacuum and electrical system ought to get it back on the road, reliably. Otherwise the car looks to be a cream-puff inside and out.

the fact is, the 944's were more expensive (or viewed as such) and therefore typically bought by people who took better care of them. The 924's were cheap and were many times treated to the back-woods style workmanship or lack of maintenance that we've all seen from time to time. The fact that parts are cheap, doesn't help when you have to replace all of them shortly after buying the car.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Spring Lake MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, from what I've seen, the early examples of the 944 and the 924S are quickly falling to the same fate as many 924s...and given the expensive and (relatively) difficult PM required on those cars, I expect them to fall by the way side even more precipitously as time goes on.
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fiat22turbo  



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I concur that as more of these are handed off to people with less and less concern for what they are doing and whether they've done any research on what they are doing will equate to more of them being parted.

So yeah, the older cars are gonna either get worse or better depending on who owns them, but bet on more of them getting screwed up than getting fixed. Sad but true, folks.
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ic932  



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="john h"]
ic932 wrote:
john h wrote:
Paul wrote:

I also used to own a 944 which I rebuild using new parts and it was a good as new when put on the road but in it's two year residence cost at home it cost a small fortune just to carry out the routine maintenace compared to the 924 Turbo - hence it was asked to leave and find a new wallet to empty.


Sounds like you dropped a bollock on that mate? Who sold it to you?


I brought the car as an insurance write off, fixed it,had it running for two years and sold it. When I added the cost of rebuild, two years of running costs (cambelt and clutch) it cost me all up just on NZ$7,000. I sold the car for NZ$6,800 so I dropped $100 for each year of ownership.

I did like the 44 but I enjoyed driving the GT replica more hence I kept it. Also I found that the GT was easier to maintain (simpler) than the 944.


Yeah I think that's the key, if a clutch job is involved on either 924T or 944 then it will eat up a healthy % of the cost of buying the car in the first place.

It hits harder if you decide to sell obviously. I think you did ok with just a $200 loss considering you copped both cam and clutch jobs whilst on your watch.
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ic932  



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiat22turbo wrote:
BTW, you guys are the equivalent of standing in the back of the room bitching.

Want to help fix the stigma and get the magazine to listen to you?

Go sign up for their forum on their website and actually talk to the regular readers and the owners/operators of the magazine. They will typically respond there fairly quickly, you can also contact them through their website as well.

Then one or more of you write an article and submit it for their consideration, if it is well written with decent pictures they will likely print it and even pay you for it.

I can't talk as I'm in the middle of essentially rebuilding my 924 na from the ground up, I bought it for $650 and drove it home from Seattle and once I got it here I found so much wrong with it that it needed a lot of help.

My buddy just bought an 80 Turbo for $800, not running and it looks like a complete rebuild of the hydraulics, fluid, vacuum and electrical system ought to get it back on the road, reliably. Otherwise the car looks to be a cream-puff inside and out.

the fact is, the 944's were more expensive (or viewed as such) and therefore typically bought by people who took better care of them. The 924's were cheap and were many times treated to the back-woods style workmanship or lack of maintenance that we've all seen from time to time. The fact that parts are cheap, doesn't help when you have to replace all of them shortly after buying the car.


Yeah, a lot of good points. Regarding stigma, I really wouldn't think about it. Comparing the 931 to the 944 is like comparing heads 'n' tails on the same old coin. In reality, just a months salary buys you the best available. Put another way, I doubt there is a 931 owner that could'nt sell up and buy the best 951S available. No, 931 owners dream of the CGT, CGTS or GTR. Thats something that the non-enthusiast will never get

I look at it this way, a 931 in constant repair/modification (my baby) and a 944 to abuse and throw away whilst my 931 is being made ready. Thats how I approach it. I wouln't slag off the 944 any more then the 931. Thats like picking your favorite kid!

An editor for a Porsche mag probably dreams of a 911RS (73')? I doubt they consider a 924GTS or a 928GTS. Who cares what judgements they make?

924.org is at the heart of the 931 world. Any opinion outside this forum has no relevance to me wotsoever. This is a world-wide authority, and our cars need no green light from a magazine article.
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Vince Ponz  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 3581
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned the following I rank the 931 high on the list.
69 911 coupe..................... new
77 1/2 924.........................new
79 931 euro turbo...............used
85 1/2 944.........................used
88 924S.............................used
87 Targa............................new
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Paul  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 9491
Location: Southeast Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the repair costs are similar (brakes, shocks, tires, clutch, electrics, master and slave cylinders).

Before reading the next paragraph, the following is based on my skills which may be different than yours.

The dreaded FOES in the 924S is mostly overstated and can be done by anyone that can change a timing belt correctly on a 931. No special tools are needed to change the belts. (fire suit on) I don't even use a flywheel lock.

931s like to shake everything apart (J pipe, header pipe, exhaust manifold, engine mounts, shifter parts).

If you are doing your own work on a 924S and keep an eye on your car, there is no need to do more than the belts which cost less than $100. I usually do all the rollers since they are easy and not too expensive. As far as the seals and water pump go, I wait for them to fail. Haven't had to do either yet on the three 924Ss I've owned.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
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Location: Spring Lake MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrenching skills notwithstanding, a seized water pump (or any one of those rollers) on the 2.5L will take the timing belt (and the valves) out with it. Not so on the 931. This is precisely why it is recommended for replacement with FOES. Too much risk to not do it in my opinion. BTW, same holds true on the 928.
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924guy  



Joined: 29 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:
Hope that letter to the editor pointed out the problem with their 2.5 FOES cost. . .$600? Wouldn't even buy the parts.


mentioned it, and the cost of the proper tensioning tool.

Quote:
fiat22turbo wrote:
BTW, you guys are the equivalent of standing in the back of the room bitching.

Want to help fix the stigma and get the magazine to listen to you?

Go sign up for their forum on their website and actually talk to the regular readers and the owners/operators of the magazine. They will typically respond there fairly quickly, you can also contact them through their website as well.


see post above...

and many like this on grm: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/learn-me-porsche-924s/18909/page1/


so fiat and I are there allot, anyone else?
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78 924
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Paul  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much is a used 944 cylinder head vs a new water pump?
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