924Board.org

[bacook]

From http://members.aol.com/danmas/

1. They’re not perfectly good cars.

Many modern factory sports cars are well-engineered vehicles with ample power and handling, having good looks and style, but severely lacking in character. Welcome to the "I drive a bubble" generation. After spending 20-60 thousand dollars on a car, wouldn’t you like to drive something with character?

From the 50’s through the 70’s, US auto manufacturers focused on building powerful, reliable muscle cars. At the same time, Europe and Japan built some beautiful, well engineered little cars, and then stuffed them with dinko little anemic power plants. Today, many of these stylish and character laden automobiles are still available at affordable prices. Powerful American powerplants and light weight Japanese motors are readily available, waiting for a creative motorhead to install them into an old classic! At last, the one thing that kept these cars from being motoring Nirvana can be eliminated - get rid of that puny engine and add some POWER!

NOW you have a perfectly good car.

2. The factory should have done it.

Some engine conversions work so well, it seems like it was the engineers original plan. It probably was. You can be certain the design engineers wanted to do it, but the bean counters wouldn't let them.

3. Dr. Frankenstein would have done it -- Carol Shelby did!

Since you're on this web page, you've probably already heard the story--AC, a British car company producing a cute little car that had been around since before the wheel. Enter Carol Shelby, American cowboy with access to powerful American V8s.

It's the classic romance—boy meets little car, boy gets big motor, boy performs engine conversion, boy goes racing, boy wins. The love affair with the AC Cobra begins . . . Enzo Ferrari was not amused!

4. It’s the American thing to do.

Melting pot theories aside, automotive genetic experimentation is a long-time US hobby. Stripping, chopping, transplanting . . . to the chagrin of automotive ethicists everywhere.

5. The Hempstead Law supports it.

There is a common law among mechanics everywhere, originally discovered by Benjamin Dent Hempstead. It goes something like this:

Pride X Fun = Worth of VehiclePerformance Equipment

6. It's an expression of your manhood.

Your wife is right, the Corvette is a phallic symbol. Installing a Corvette motor in another car is just another way of . . . expressing your virility. Even in prehistoric times, the caveman with the biggest club got the prettiest cavewoman. How big is your club?

7. They perform heart transplants on humans.

If your life depended on a heart transplant, would you choose the same model, or the 4-valve per chamber, High Output model?

8. It's a positive result of a mid life crisis.

There are far more stupid things on which you could spend your money. If you think stuffing a big engine into a little car is expensive, just compare it to the cost of a Mistress. Don't you know Bill Clinton wishes he had done an engine swap instead?

9. Tim Allen would be proud of you.

And perhaps a cute lesson in morality will appear at the end of your project!

10. It's an excuse to buy more tools.

Engine hoists are cool. So are air wrenches, floor jacks, welders, and all those other nifty tools you couldn't otherwise justify. Tools are, after all, toys, and "he who dies with the most toys wins!"

11. Bonus Reason!

IT'S YOUR CAR AND YOU JUST DAMN WELL WANT TO!

[ccsf-student]

i have got to say those are THE BEST 10 reasons i have ever heard. even when when my friend stuffed a small block 400 into his 86 camaro people would doubt him and he didnt have these great reasons to justify his swap,but he did it any way and its bitchin. now if only i could stuff a 383 strocker into my 80 931!

[dwak]

And I say again and again; it's a question of balance. Sure put a more powerful engine in but make sure it weighs the same as, or less than, the one that was there before because the balance of the car was the 'art' of the car and you don't want to tear it's 'art' out.

dwak il literatore

[Cbass]

I have been talking with a lady in England who has put a couple of aluminum 4.6L rover V8s in 924s... Her quoted cost for the conversion was 500 pounds...

The engine is based off of the original Rover/Buick 3.5, but stroked and bored to 4.6 liters, and it has modern fuel injection. Doesn't add any weight, in fact it's about 10 lbs lighter.

[dwak]

Perfect! And what was HER/HIS name?
dwak

[Cbass]

Her name on the rennlist is Adie. I'm not sure if that is her real name or not. I am awaiting details and pics, but she doesn't have an email address, I have been in contact through the rennlist PM system.

[wdb]

hey cbass , maybe youll have better luck getting ALL the details from adie than I did. more about adie's 924
http://www.prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=133
there was a discussion awhile back about this swap
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=214&forum=2&start=0

[ This Message was edited by: wdb on 2002-05-13 08:00 ]

[dwak]

I've got Adie The Throp's price and part list and all, it's just I thought she was a guy, not that it matters she's a girl, I think everyone should have one but I got hellishly confused. Especially when she offered to come over and do my conversion (?!?) and my wife found out and made me sleep out on the back porch for a week, again.
Anyway, she/he's the one for Rover/931 conversion. I would have and may yet but I was low on surplus funds at the time

[Rick MacLaren]

You said:

"Carol Shelby did!
Since you're on this web page, you've probably already heard the story--AC, a British car company producing a cute little car that had been around since before the wheel. Enter Carol Shelby, American cowboy with access to powerful American V8s.
It's the classic romance—boy meets little car, boy gets big motor, boy performs engine conversion, boy goes racing, boy wins. The love affair with the AC Cobra begins . . . Enzo Ferrari was not amused!"

Well, ok, the Shelby was beautiful, but...

First, I recall Carol Shelby's legendary Cobra had an annoying habit of rising OFF THE GROUND at high speeds. Seems to me mating a big engine inside a little car comes with some inherently unpleasant drawbacks.

Second, Carroll Shelby had the ENTIRE FORD ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT helping him out. Unfortunately, anyone doing a Porsche-USCAR conversion will not have either Porsche or any other car maker helping him out.

Third, and more importantly, here's a quote from Carrol Shelby himself on the 'reasonableness' of the Shelby Cobra from a 1982 interview:

For the full interview see http://www.erareplicas.com/history/carex/p4.htm

Conclusion? Talk to Shelby himself:

-------Carroll Shelby Interview Text -------

Shelby: Now you look at those idiots out there, building replicas of a car that's 20 years old, that leaked in the rain, was hot to drive, and generally uncomfortable.

Shelby: Sure the Cobra had problems. The first two we built, we took before the top brass at Ford, and they didn't make one lap around the test track before the radiators blew up. They were awfully hot cars, but they could go like hell.

CE: You're really down on Cobra replicas.

Shelby: I'm not down on them. All you have to do is sit down and realize what it cost last time, what it will cost this time, and honestly put all your costs in there, instead of bs-ing yourself, which most of these people are doing because they are enthusiasts, and not car builders ... but let me tell you, Carroll Shelby never made any money on the AC Cobras either.

-------Carroll Shelby Interview Text finished here-------

Some things just don't work...these are good reasons for doing a conversion, but regarding the 924, I can't yet see any conversion under $10K in cost actually leading to a better car than the stock unit with a few engine mods.

Regarding Adie's conversion: Adie has not yet provided or shown how such a conversion can happen for the $500 she claimed. Some points of note:

1. Her parts prices can't be replicated. She obviously gets her parts from a very large tree that grows somewhere in the UK.

2. Her labour costs are zero. She is obviously equipped with a machine shop, welding facilities, hoist and staff of 3 willing, skilled German-trained Namibian slaves.

3. When parts are scarce, her metal fabrication unit and deep iron ore and aluminum open-pit mine in her back yard are there to pick up the slack.

Some things look good on paper but this one got put to rest long ago Dwak. She's not provided much backup for her claims. She owes us a $500 conversion she never finished.

Carroll Shelby is calling them idiots for making full replicas of his car. What name is appropriate for someone sticking a Chevy inside a 924 'terrarium' that overheats already, is modestly uncomfortable and has inadequate heating inside, a poor spartan interior and a drivetrain that is not meant for imperial parts?


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-14 06:49 ]

[Cbass]

If you are using a motor with more than twice the displacement, get a better rad.

Adie has built a few of these 924 V8s, one that she raced as a drag car, with a 10 second ET.

She quoted 500 POUNDS, not $500, and that is for parts other than the engine. That is in new mounts, rad.. that sort of stuff.

[Guest]

Different strokes for different folks. I am always amused by the opinions that this topic brings out.

Here is another point for the list

11. It will cost you much time and even more money to install a V8 engine into your 924. This project should not be attempted by anyone not having the funds to do so or without the tools and facility. It is also noteworthy that most people will frown and tell you how it will throw off the wieght balance too much and that it is generally a bad idea.

[Rick MacLaren]

CBass...read Rennlist...$500 USD. And even if she cowers out and says 500 pounds, she never addresses issues like:

Where can you get a decent V8 to put into a car for 500 pounds? Is she gonna give you the old story of the 'pristine' Land Rover V8 in someone's garage for twenty bucks?

Where can you get all the machining done to put that V8 into the car for 500 pounds?

Where can you get all the tools required for 500 pounds?

Where can you get all the expertise to do such a job for 500 pounds?

Come on CBass, don't get sucked in by Adie... she's woefully lacking in 'detail'.



[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-15 03:54 ]

[bacook]

Wow! This is great! It's cool to see so much enthusiasm. Why is it that the idea of engine transplants stirs up so much emotion?

[ This Message was edited by: bacook on 2002-05-15 01:15 ]

[Rick MacLaren]

Praise to the Swap Ideal...

Caveat: My 'Swap Ideal' here, deliberately capitalized, refers to the classic V8 Chevy swap done for cheap. It does not refer to the creative and perhaps quite plausible 20V VW engine swap, nor does it refer to the quite reasonable $10,000 swap where the person is aware of the costs and does it anyway...It's about the V8 in the 924 for $500 bucks or less than, like $8K for a running, reliable beast. OK? Ok.

Emotion? Yes. I feel some 'protectiveness' for the wallets of younger, less experienced people who really want a nice car; I also have some emotion, some 'impatience' with dreaming, cause it's so damned easy, and nothing in used Porsche is easy; and some scorn or 'flame' for folks like Adie (who may be well-meaning, sincere and truthful, or just bullshxxing) who say a lot but back up very little.

If you wonder why other folks, besides me, might critique the 'swap' of the Chevy or Rover block into the 924, it might have more to do with the unrealistic expectations generated by the proponents of the Swap Ideal than with the mechanical feasibility of performing an expensive swap. Indeed, I was a proponent of swaps for years, and this enthusiasm for swap was very high, in my mind, until I actually went about pricing the swap in the 'real world'. Once I priced it in the 'real world', my faith in the Swap Ideal waned quickly.

My first experience with the Swap Ideal was with Renegade Hybrids, whose ads quoted CHEAP COST yet, over the phone, quoted me some $8000 USD (included tax, labour, duty) five years back to swap a V8 into a 924. I was aghast. Now, by the way, Renegade has STOPPED doing 924 conversions. You call them and ask the experts why they stopped.

My second experience with the Swap Ideal, a few years back, was with a local 'swap' expert in Toronto. He said "Oh if you want speed you can throw a V8 into this car for cheap". Then I left him the car to look over and make a quote. His quote? Basically the same, only he felt the V8 into the car would result in more cooling difficulty ('difficulty equals expense') and transmission, electrical, fuel, even suspension and steering re-routes and machine work than he was willing to do. Even he felt disappointed at the Swap Ideal's failure to live up to high expectations.

Thus, at least initially, I suppose my rationale for verbally abusing the V8 swap group is that they deserve it! They proffer ideas with no backup, and promote what I'd call 'pie in the sky' theorizing where the followers typically:

(a) have some part they want to sell, like a V8, sitting in their garage, or a transmission.

(b) have no records of their manhours, or labour costs. They resort to 'enthusiast' positions like "Oh well you have to have a garage, and a hoist, and a complete toolset in metric and imperial, and oh well these little problems like fitting even a fuel line should be enjoyable if you call yourself an 'enthusiast' and so if you're not with the idea then you shouldn't do it. Ya gotta have 'faith'."

The Swap Ideal is a RELIGION, to which the adherents of the religion demand 'faith' in the idea that it can be done. Still, they don't actually have a car they can drive AND a healthy bank account at the same time.

(c) followers typically lack the ability to communicate, in writing, labour tasks and costs simulataneously. Seldom has there ever been here, on this board, a reasonable swap proposed with reasonable costs and labour tasks articulated to such a degree that anyone could ever do them! In brief, the ideas they propose never can be replicated! And secrecy? Whoa! They say "Oh you just cut the metal to fit" and that explanation is supposed to make the Initiate Swap Follower "Believe" in the swap ideal. Bah. "Show me!" I say. "I can't show you, it's on the car" says the "Swap Guru", or "Yours may be different so you're going to have to make it fit". "With what?" I ask, "A sledge? Or a cutting torch? Or why don't I just take this sledge to your idea instead and call it half baked?"

(d) Followers also seem to have a brain dysfunction wherein they lack the cognitive ability to show materials and costs lined up simultaneously. "Swap followers" can't ever show where they get these materials! They 'fabricate' a magical link between a V8 engine and a tranny spline, or a magical link between a 924 fuel system and a V8 engine where fuel pumps are the same (bah) and fuel pressures the same (bah) and steering racks don't need tweaking (bah) or they 'fabricate' a $15 electrical system. They also have a place, much like "Heaven", where all parts are to be had: Your local junkyard. This "Heaven" seems to hold a plethora of parts that carry magical properties - like the ability to work both on a German built, metric 924 and an American built imperial Chevrolet. All for a few bucks USD.

I guess I just like to consider myself the Council on Mind Abuse representative for the 924 world, peeing occasionally on the 'swap religion' parts and labour tree, so that young guys gentle minds don't get warped into buying crappy old garage floor V8's cause they've been fed garbage ideas by dreamers. I think if they own a 924, they oughtta enjoy it for what it is, and if the want a V8 swap in a 924, they're probably better off finding a V8 in a 944 and just buying the damned thing, cause the actual ODDS of actually DOING the swap are infinitismally small.

Yes, you can do a swap, it is possible, but it's damned expensive, damned rare, and damned difficult: it ain't for the faint of heart. It's probably $20,000 CDN later that you actually have a running car that looks and runs half decent and has a proper motor job and proper reliability. Why $20,000? Cause you've never done it before and Murphy's Law dictates that "Whatever you do not expect will happen". And for the same cost you can get a 944 Turbo that'll blow a V8's doors off. So why bother?

And I'll tell ya something else: Next time Adie rears her head here and says she can do a swap for 500 pounds, I'll tell ya what: Let's take her up on it. Let's ask her to convert a 924 that belongs to someone else here and pay her for it. Let's see her estimate. My bet? It'll be high. Really high. So why is she saying 500 pounds? Cause she didn't do a proper accounting of parts, labour, and engine cost. There's no way she'll do your car or any other 924 for under $8K USD, and certainly not for 500 pounds.

Know how I know she'll decline? Cause that's exactly what Carroll Shelby was talking about...there's no way she can manufacture an essentially new car for little cash. No way. Moreover, if she could do it, she'd be RICH, cause everyone would want a reliable, high horsepower, guaranteed, stylish 924 with a nice rebuilt V8 inside. So why doesn't she just build them for $8K and sell them for $15K? Cause no one would trust her guarantee, her engine rebuild, her workmanship or her parts. That's why Adie is in a garage making cars for herself and that's why she isn't marketing them with incredibly low production costs.

Your mileage may vary. Talk is cheap, let's see her back up her BS. Peace and love. I must now return to my skeptical, dark, gloomy cynical cave and lament over the fact that I have to install a new rad fan on my sad little 200 HP (guessing) non-V8 $15,000 (i.e., all real costs) 931.


[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-05-15 03:51 ]

[Peter]

Seriously Rick, tell us how you really feel.
-Peter A. Holiat