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Cadillac swap **** 56k warning****
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PORSCHEV wrote:
The only mistake is that you are going to rely on the the mounting point of the Porsche cross member. The spot welds that hold this area to the rest of the uni body are known to fail under stress. Both Vaughn and myself had this issue racing the 924 platform.

I made the same mistake on my V8 install....I am sure I will have to make a change down the road.


Thanks for the info PORSCHEV ,Little late to change now,but will definitely not do it again. This is my first project of this size,as in requiring some level of engineering,however I have learned so much while working on it.Whenever this is finished,I'll consider building another Hybrid,to apply the knowlage.How about a GTR replica with a turbocharged Northstar?
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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PORSCHEV  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 1901
Location: Cedar Lake Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just suggest that you weld the potential weak area now while you have easy access. Maybe over lap a plate over the joints on both sides and mig weld in place.
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1976 924
5 lug conversion, 17'C2 wheels,custom body work,327 vette engine.

1978-#53 "D" track racer.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PORSCHEV wrote:
I would just suggest that you weld the potential weak area now while you have easy access. Maybe over lap a plate over the joints on both sides and mig weld in place.


Now,would be a great time to do that.I'm in the process of stripping the paint from the engine compartment,so I can finish whatever fabrication is needed, then seal the bare metal with a rust preventer and add the final paint finish.

"Aircraft Remover" some really awesome stuff,makes jobs like this a breeze,however it will only strip one layer at a time.I'm actually finished stripping and now only needs a little sanding for paint prep.




I finally purchased a radiator for this project,found it on the pelican fourm.It's a 1988 model 951 unit, excellent condition.I thought it was a great deal,got it shipped to my door for $70.

I was looking for a more eccentric cooling system for this project,because the 951 radiator seems a little generic for me,but maybe I could mount it a little different than the other 924/931 to 944/951 rad swaps I've seen.I'm hoping someone would help with Ideals for mounting the radiator,and I have seen enwrench's 951 install,but I doubt I'll want to copy something someone has already done.






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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote























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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided to use the stock 924 mounting points to mount the 951 radiator.Then I made the decision that the top of the new unit should be about where the top of the stock unit was,effectively adding the two extra inches of radiator at the bottom.The radiator is now even with the bottom of the front valance,but not below it,and still completely hidden by the valance.I realize there could be major damage if car was "bottomed out"on something,but I doubt I'll have any problems.I also want to note that PORSCHEV's custom radiator hangs way low,even below his 944 valance.

The material I used for the brackets is 1.5'' width X .125'' thickness.The bends were made in a bench vice,using an acetylene torch and hammer.The top brackets are mounted to the header in the stock location with M6 bolts.I thought the stock Lower mounting points were M6,but the fact is,they are not.(they are something smaller)I then removed the caged nuts,and mounted the brackets with M6 bolts with nuts on the "back side" meaning the side closest to the bumper.

The new radiator installation procedure.

1 mount lower brackets to the stock mounting locations.

2 Install radiator

3 mount upper brackets to the stock mounting locations.


The radiator is mounted soild and seems to be very strong.I realize that the stock unit and every other radiator in the world has something for vibration dampening(rubber bushings or whatever).I obviously don't have that,and really don't know how critical it is,to not have the rad mounted soild.

The radiator is mounted about .75'' closer to the engine(further from the header) than the stock unit.There was no need for this,but I doubt it will be a problem.I was thinking I would need to put a wrench between the lower bracket and and radiator(to tighten the lower mountong bolts)so I also added .75 to the top brackets to even things out and keep the stock angle.

If there is any interest in other people wanting to upgrade their 924/931 rad to the 951 unit,using this mounting method,I would be happy to do a step by step thread in the "how-to" section.


Thanks...
Chad
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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PORSCHEV  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 1901
Location: Cedar Lake Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My rad is raised up now.....reason for the GT headlights. Looks like your doing a great job.
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1976 924
5 lug conversion, 17'C2 wheels,custom body work,327 vette engine.

1978-#53 "D" track racer.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



The above pic was taken back in December of 2007,it was the first time the complete engine had been mocked up in the engine compartment.Untill this day,I was certain that the stock master cylinder could be fitted by simply deleating the power booster.I was thinking maybe I could get by with some type of tube,pipe,or cone shaped piece between the firewall and master cylinder,then adding a longer Pushrod.

However,I was terribly wrong,even without a booster,the MC needed to be relocated.This was something I had definitely not planned for.I never had any intentions of stripping the interior to relocate the brake pedal and whatever else.

After I realized how much damn work this was going to be,I was hoping I could relocate the power brake booster,as PORSCHEVhad done with his swap.

However,because of the larger physical size of my caddy engine compared to the small block chevy,that method is also a dud.I measured this thing many,many times,there just is no room for a booster.I could probably get a smaller Dia. booster mounted on the firewall,but would have no clearance for any kind of MC from that location.(What a Bitch!!!)

I guess,It would be absolutely pointless to spend anymore time fitting the engine in the car and making it run,if the car has no brakes.It would only be a Porsche engine stand for my cadillac engine.






Well I guess It's time to get started on the brake system.
I first made the decision that the vertical black line I drew on the firewall, would be the "boundry line" for any brake components or anything else.It seemed very intimidating at first,because this "boundry line" left only a very marginal amount of space for latteral movement of the engine.Normally I would never consider mounting anything this close to an engine,especially near the top(next to the valve cover)where the most movement will occur.However my engine is "almost" mounted soild,with only bolt through bushings(mounted vertically)for vibration dampening.I have to believe that,engine movement will be very minimal,but the rule, that absolutely nothing cross the black line is very critical!



The above pic,shows how to calulate pedal ratio.It's pretty self explanatory.I thought i should post it here for referance,in case someone wanted to know how I was figuring pedal ratios and then I doubt I could explain this with text.

I'm sure,I'm the last person anyone here,would want teaching general automotive principles.However,I feel it's nessisary at this point.
I want to talk about some things,because recently,I have been amazed by the lack of general knowlege of most auto technicians,I'm not only talking about the "part changers" at the dealerships,but also shop owners with over 40 years experience.

9 out 10 people "auto technicians" will argue,(before referencing or being proven wrong by handing them a book),that a larger bore master cylinder will increase the braking power.More clearly,they say,if you increase the size of the master cylinder,you will increase the braking power and stop faster.Some go as far to say,If you are converting power to manual brakes,you will need a larger master cylinder to make the pedal easier to push and will agian also make the car stop faster.

I know,and I'm sure most all of you know, those statments are total B.S. and basically the opposite of the truth.I have some knowlege and have had a little experience with power to manual brake conversions.This was learned from "hot rodding" I did a booster deleate and helped with a few other conversions,this was done because the engines made not enough vacuum at normal driving speeds to run a power booster.

I had to do alot research,before i felt confident,that I could design a complete brake system from scratch.I found a great article that covers everything from top to bottom and is also very easy to understand. I believe everything in the artical to be fact and have been using it as a referance.

http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes.htm
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote





























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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.


Last edited by chad-tanner on Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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AppleBit  



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 1516
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my manual brakes are of the same rules - works great!! enjoy
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Adie  



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even stranger is that if the same 9 or 10 people had issues with a hydraulic clutch being too stiff, they would drop the bore size. Shows they do everything without thinking, sometimes you have to experience things to know how they work. However it is worth remembering that the larger bore would displace more fluid which may be required for big multi-pot calipers on all 4 corners as you may run out of cylinder travel before you have moved enough fluid to lock up all 4 corners, for that you need the larger bore and add a booster if you cannot generate enough pressure to activate the calipers effectively, this is just casual information for others reading this thread.
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have recently had problems with my photobucket account.I've had problems with resizing photos and sometimes the pics change size on their own,plus all kinds of other weird stuff,like account settings changing,and not to mention,The whole site has been running really slow.

I realize the oversize pics are making the text difficult to read,having to scroll left to right, while reading.However,I've been working on the problem,and I think I'm getting close to having it straightened out.

Ok,back to the cadillac swap,I'm really surprised no one has asked WTF was going in the pics or what kind of master cylinder that is.This thread seems to get alot of veiws,but rarely does anyone inquire about anything.However,given the number of veiws,I have to assume there are at least a few people with some kind interest.

As I have said in the last post,there would be no need to continue fitting the engine,if the car has no brakes.I really doubt I would be able to relocate the master cylinder, brake pedal and route the brake lines after the engine has been installed,even if it was possible,It would obviously be so much more difficult.

My focus at this point is to get the car running and drivable as soon as possible.Even though I would like to,and will eventually upgrade to 5 lug,and rear disc brakes,It's not a priority at this time and definitely not required to get the project "running and drivable".However,I don't want to(in the future) upgrade the work I did to make the car driveable.More clearly,when I get ready to upgrade to larger calipers and etc.,I don't want to reroute brake lines,change the line size,or do-redo any fabrication,relocation,and etc. for a different MC or whatever else.I would be happy if I did'nt have to pop the hood to do any upgrades to the brake system,but more realistic,I want any moddification of what is already done to be very minimal,Hopefully only a "bolt-on" master cylinder upgrade if needed for whatever combination of brake upgrades I choose.

If any of that is understandable,That was my number one consideration.Another thing I wanted was a higher ratio brake pedal.Because this is manual system whith no power assist,the added mechanical leverage is allways a plus with no side effects and really needs no other considerations,with requiring less human power to build the line pressure required to stop the car.In general theory,if your manual brake pedal is long enough,you can stop the car as effortlessly as power brakes.However that is obviously very unrealistic,as it would take a very long pedal to do that and it would have a "city block"of travel,but it makes things easier to understand.

I quickly learned that the 924 could not be compared with a 1966 chevy Bob truck or even a 71 nova,there is just not enough room in the "foot well" to swing a super high ratio pedal.My stock pedal ratio(about 5:1) was actually higher than I would have thought.My custom pedal ended up being about 6:1,which is generally considered standerd for a manual brake setup,and given that the 924 is a bit of a lightweight,6:1 may be a little above standard.I'm sure I could have squeezed a little more ratio into the pedal,but I doubt,I would feel comfortable with any more pedal travel(I'm talking about the total distance the pedal moves and not how far it will move to build line pressure).I guess thats why you don't see many"super high ratio pedals",unless the master cylinder has a really short stroke.However,that combination does exsit,the MC's have a very large bore with a very short stroke,they exist outside the automotive world and are,because of limited space and not to increase line pressure.

Well,I guess it's time to tell you about the master cylinder.I acquired two junk yard MC's for mock-up.They are both from 1992 model Toyota pickups,one 2WD,the other 4WD.They are visualy identical,along with their outside dimensions being identical.More clearly,they interchange with eachother without any tweak what so ever.However,the two are not identical on the inside,the 2WD unit has a 7/8''(22.2mm) bore and the 4WD has a healthy 1''(25.4mm) bore.I've done alot of research on these MC's,plus have had some experience with them.They are used on the pickups(stock form) as a power disc/drum setup.They both can and have been documented as used manually(booster deleate) and have also been used with rear disc conversions with enough fluid reserve to handle any calipers,I would consider for the future brake upgrades.I also want to note that these MC's have no useless BS that could be a problem,like some type of built in provisions for ABS, residual valve,or whatever else not needed or wanted.The units are as basic as they come,just a fluid pumping piston with a reservoir.

The smaller 22mm unit is what I have fitted on the car to use with my stock brakes.Ideally it's a little large for this set-up and I think will have a little less pedal travel than I would like,requiring a little bit more grunt from me to build the required line pressure.However,if I did'nt screw-up the math too badly,it should work alright and not be terrible by manual brake standards.It should be fine for my goal of making this project drivable till I upgrade the brakes.Depending on what calipers I use in the future,this MC may be the right size for the upgrade,or if I decided to fit some massive 4 pots on all 4 corners,I can move up to the larger bore unit.I want to note that a 1'' bore MC is large for a manual system and will take large calipers with lots of volume to have comfortable pedal travel.

I'm sure at least one person wants to know,why I did'nt use the stock MC ,the 944 unit,or something similar.It's obvious,that makes way too much sense! Also after having some experience with Toyota brake conversions and after alot more additional research,I found lots of other make and model calipers used on these pickups,so when I upgrade the brakes,I doubt It will be anything ever mounted on a 924 before :lol:The LOL does'nt mean this is a joke,It's just the kind of project this is.This was always intended to be A "fun" type of project.

Thanks for reading.....
Chad
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15548
Location: Spring Lake MI

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad, your work and results are definitely inspiring. I check in now and again just to see what's going on!

Regarding your future brake upgrades, forgive me if I'm asking something you already covered earlier (I probably haven't read all 8 pages...) but one thing you will for sure need to take into account is what type of bias split you are going to run. The stock 924 four lug has an X setup, whereas the five lug has a front-rear split. Switching between the two could be as simple as moving/adding a tee or two in strategic locations, but I think you'll definitely want to consider converting to the F-R when you go to discs at all four corners. Also, I believe the chambers in the MC for the five lug setup are sized differently as a result of the different bias split, so you may want to also think about that with respect to the MC you've selected. It may be a good idea to install a bias adjusting valve on the rear circuit...

The other question that comes to mind is what you intend to do with the car once it's up and running. I presume you'll be more inclined to do 1/8 and 1/4 mile track days vs. road courses, in which case I think your brake setup should be just fine...provided you did the math correctly
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola,Thanks for reading,I had no ideal you had been lurking around the engine transplants.Maybe You have been thinking about your "post UWB project"

You did'nt miss anything,I have yet to explain the brake line routing.However,thats a good place to start today.

I have absolutely no use for the "diagonal split" of the stock 924 disc/drum setup.Even for disc/drum,it's weird,If I were planning on leaving the car as a disc/drum,I would still convert to front/rear split.I realize the diagonal split has a purpose,but it goes against most everything I know about brake proportioning.

Now,this will be a true front/rear split,I'll try to explain the line routing.

I will only use two sections of the stock brake lines,these will be the ones that connect to the rear drum assemblies.I will use only enough length of these,to get them into a "Tee" near the rear of the car.Ideally,I want the lines from the tee to the drum,to be as short as possible and close to equal length.In the future,When I upgrade to rear disc,these two lines will be replaced.

The front calipers will be fitted with new braided stainless flex lines,that connect to the new hard lines.The hard/flex line connection will mount in the stock location in the wheel well.Each of these new hard lines will be routed to a Tee that is already mounted under the MC and also connected to the MC's front port.

The rear port of the MC will have a short line connecting it to an adjustable proportioning valve,which will mount somewhere near the MC.The line out of the prop valve will run to the Tee at the rear of the car.

This is a very basic front/rear setup with adjustable proportioning for the rear brakes.There are a few things I also want to note,the two "tees" used in this system have no metering or proportioning effect.They are only a simpile free flowing tee.Also the lines that connect to the drum assemblies(which will be replaced later)will be the only "bubble flares" in this system.The Toyota MC and everything else will be "double flare".

Thanks for reading and I still have more explaination for the pics I posted,I'll try to post some more text later today.I'll also be happy to answer any questions anyone may have.

Thanks....
Chad
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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Rocco R16V  



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 497
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very well documented swap, thank you!
some info i was looking for you made easy to find.
chad-tanner wrote:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes.htm

great link, love what your doing with the brakes!
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chad-tanner  



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 217
Location: New Madrid,MO

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments guys,It's nice knowing that people actually read this thread.

I guess it's time to explain a little bit of "what's going on" in the pictures on page 7.I wish,I had taken some before pics of the stock set-up,but it just slipped my mind.I'm sure alot of you are familiar with the mounting of the stock pedals,and I doubt there is any difference with the auto trans other than the lack of a clutch pedal.

I've already talked about the black line drawn on the firewall,as being the "boundry line" for any brake components or anything else.After that,I decided the centerline on the master cylinder needed moved out board about 2.75''. This new location is about center above the steering.This was not a problem inside the engine compartment,but definitely a problem on the other side of the firewall.

I thought about this,untill I was tired of thinking about it,I finally decided this was about best location for the MC,as it would be mounted between and bolted to the steering column brace,which made this part of the firewall very strong. I would just have to somehow make the brake pedal work around the steering column inside the car.

I started making the adapter to mount the Toyota MC to the firewall.I already knew that it did'nt need to mount "flush" with the firewall,but needed to have some angle upward.To understand this better,if the fill line on the reservoir were parallell to the ground(level),the MC bore would be angled upward 8 degrees.This is how it's designed to mount on the Yoda pickups,I did'nt see any problem with the push-rod angle and this is also arguably better than being mounted "square to the firewall.I'm sure Toyota and other manufacturers have a reason for this,but I don't really know.The adapter I made, is pretty much,what it looks like in the pictures.It's made from .125'' thick mild steel,with 5/16'' grade 8 bolts welded inside as mounting studs for the MC. It mounts to the firewall with (3)5/16''and (1)1/4'' bolts. Two bolts use the exsiting mounting holes of the power booster and the other two,bolt through the wall and combined steering column brace.

After mounting the MC,I then started on the brake pedal.I was planning on making some kind of offset pedal,but decided on something more eccentric.It's hard to believe,but the steering actually passes through the brake pedal.
The pedal hangs on the stock "shear pin"I don't know what the acctual PET name is,but this is what I call,"the rod the pedal hangs on".After hanging the stock pedal above the steering,I cut it off,leaving only enough to clear the steering.I then found a large Dia. pipe (3.5''ID)with .250'' wall thickness,that would allow the entire swing of the pedal without contacting the steering.This was done by removing and installing the steering,way more times than I ever want to remember.The portion of the pedal below the pipe section was also alot work,I've already talked about calculating pedal ratios,and there's not much else to say.It just takes time to figure out what will work and what feels comfortable while setting in the driver seat and holding onto the steering wheel.There's only so much you can do on paper or with a computer,then shit has to get "old school"!!

I could'nt decide what shape the pad or the part you put your foot on should be.Round,square,convex,or whatever,I just wanted something different.I always thought the Maltese cross was really cool,It's used alot now days by "rat rodders",which are a throw off the traditional hotrodders.Of coarse It's also associated with Germany,the Red Baron,and ect.It really does span so many soicial groups like bikers and even firefighters.

The pedal seems to be very strong,constructed with .250'' thick mild steel and I'm sure something else like the "shear pin" would fail before the pedal could be broken.The pedal is shimmed snugly on the shear pin,to prevent any latteral movment.The shims are made from sections of a old natrual gas line,I found with the perfect inside Dia.The pushrod is made from 3/8'' cold roll rod and threaded with M10-1.5 to use the stock clevis.I made a bracket in order to fit the stock return spring.The pedal stop is also homemade from a 5/16'' bolt epoxied inside a "plastic nut"("I think",it's a hub cover off a kid"s Radio flyer wagon).

Some of the pics were taken from underneth the steering,and some of them from the top.I did this by sticking the camera lens through the hole for the wiring to the windsheid wiper motor.

I want to also note that the rear of the MC is indeed,"open to the air" inside the car,meaning that there is not or will not be any seal around the pushrod.I'm afraid that is how,it will have to be,and no different than most traditional hotrods.

I hope this helps anyone with interest understand what I've done,and also help me remember what I've done 10 years from now.

Thanks....
Chad
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77.5 Porsche 924/4.9L cadillac swap

Inspector: These brakes look completely inadequate.
Burt Munro: Well, I'm planning on going, not stopping.
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