924Board.org

[Peter_in_AU]

with so many new members recently I suppose I should really post a bit of an overview of the Engine Transplants forum.



First off, transplanting a new (non 924/931) engine into a 924 is a fantasy. I don't mean that in a negative way, what I mean is that it is a topic that is fun to talk about but we have no hard evidence that anyone is actually doing.



If you post a question in this forum about a really great idea about putting a chevy, rover, vw or any other engine into a 924 don't take it personally if very few people respond. Everything has been discussed before. Just look at the old posts or use the search and you'll see what I mean.



Now if someone would post pics of a transplant that actually works and costs less than $10K we'd love to see them

[Rick MacLaren]

Thank God for the voice of rational thinking...I'm a bit surprised it had to come from an Aussie. Finding one of those sober, let alone rational, is a remarkably rare happening.

[Paul T.]

Peter is right folks, we can't beat this dead horse anymore than it is already. If you really think about it, you can put any engine you like in a 924, V-6,8,10,12, take your pick. It all depends on how much you want to spend. Any way you look at it, it is not going to be cheap. There is no real bolt on engine out there that will work. If there is, it would have been found by now. We can bring up all of the hypothetical theories we want about this subject. But until someone ponies up some money and lots of time to do it, the point is really mute. You know, if I really wanted to, I could fit a top fuel dragster engine in my 924 and pump out 4000 HP, but I don't have that kind of cash available. The bottom line is this, if you have enough money and time, almost any engine can be fit into a 924. It might protrude through the hood a little, but what the hell, I've got 500 horses at the rear wheels. Porsche did not design the 924 to be fast. I know, that reality sucks. But that is what we have to live with. However our cars handle like hardly anything else out there, now that is a plus! Pulling 1G on a corner is pretty awesome. So now, we have to come to the grim reality of what our cars really are, not fast but great handling. If you want a faster car, buy something else.

[Richard]

And now a view from the other side. As someone who recently posted an engine swap "idea"... and it was only a dream mind you, I was amazed at the negativity, even after I conceeded it wouldn't work. If you "old timers" are so self-assured that you know everything there is to know about engine swaps or are waiting for hard proof, than you are missing 95% of the point, which is this is suppose to be fun. Talk things over, discuss the pros and cons etc. History is full of great ideas that just came because of accidents or someone dared to break the mold. If it such a waste of your time reading this board because the Holy Grail you're waiting for isn't showing up then either don't read it, don't answer, shut it down or shut up. Just don't dampen someone elses enthusiasism because you forgot how to dream. The creative juices flow in some people when they reach for the unknown. Maybe we should just close this section down, because it is totaly absurd in the first place to re-engine a 924 when a 924s or 944 or 924T are going to be cheaper and are every bit the car. So as long as we are dealing in the absurd, let chaos rule. And guys, loosen up! You're begining to sound like what we find when 911's talk about our humble cars. Have fun and good night.

[Peter_in_AU]

Richard,

I was trying very hard not to be negative in my comments:

[Rick MacLaren]

<---JADED OLD PERSON!

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING IS A JADED RESPONSE FROM AN OLD PERSON! THOSE WITH HEART CONDITIONS SHOULD NOT READ THIS MESSAGE!

Richard: I like speed. But I don't like spending $2000 on an engine rebuild only to find 3 months later that I have to spend an additional $8000 to complete the job and actually make the damned thing functional. When I critique the 'Chevy V8 Swap' dreamers, I'm trying to save these people, and you, money, time and embarrassment. Often, I see kids here, young men 18 to 22 being told they can put a Chevy V8 into a car for $500. So which behaviour is worse? Is it worse to critique boneheaded suggestions that could cost you money and time, or to tell a 20 year old he can spend his summer savings on a V8 engine (that some twaddle just happens to be selling) and swap it into the 924 for totally unrealistic costs? I think creating impossible dreams is a far worse ethical decision than critiquing impossible dreams.

For those who don't want to listen to others who've also entertained the same dreams and even attempted it, I have only this to say: If you insist, go ahead, put a jet engine into the damned thing and fly around the planet on a $1000 budget - just make sure on your first pass you fly past my house, drop the installation guide on my head so I can verify that it's not all bullshit, and if it's possible for under $10K Canadian, I'll pucker up and kiss your flaming arse.

[ This Message was edited by: Rick MacLaren on 2002-04-05 01:20 ]

[Paul T.]

DITTO!

[wdb]

how to make a gas turbine engine from a turbo charger( with pictures ) and sound
http://www.gas-turbines.com/hobby/nye.htm

another page of instructions on making small turbine engines
http://freespace.virgin.net/cool.stuff/jet/


here spool up
http://www.gas-turbines.com/hobby/nt5high.wav
[ This Message was edited by: wdb on 2002-04-05 03:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: wdb on 2002-04-05 04:09 ]

[924 turbo]

My words, as seen in the technical FAQ:

<<Finally, some words from a lister:

The topic of engine swaps seems to come up here ALL the time. It seems that most people want to do the swap because they feel that the 924 engine isn't powerful enough and doesn't have much potential per dollar spent as far as modifications. This is certainly true. A set of high compression pistons, a camshaft, head porting, and a header will probably cost upwards of $1200 if you do the work yourself. And on top of that you'll be lucky to get 160hp out of it. While 160hp in a 924 is reasonably quick, most people don't want to spend the value of their car in modifications and still get kicked around by Acura Integras. And sure, you can throw out of back seats and all the carpet and insulation and interior trim, but if it's not a racecar, you're really compromising the utility of the car. And maybe being a little ricey in the process.

The Chevy 350 swap is a popular topic of discussion. Hey, who doesn't want a really fast 924? But the cost of the kit, without engine or cooling system upgrades or brake upgrades (unless you already did a 944 swap or have the front/rear discs as an option), is around $2000. Figure around $500 for a complete (all accessories, etc) Chevy V8, $200 or more in custom exhaust work, all the necessary cooling accessories, etc., and you're talking about almost $3000. And that is for a carbureted Chevy V8. Sure, it'll make tons of power, but the swap will cost you around twice the value of the car! Sure, the parts are cheaper to replace when they break, but considering the initial investment, it hardly seems worth it. And on top of that it will destroy the balance of the car and throw off all the handling characteristics. And the added weight over the front wheels will make the car VERY difficult to steer at low speeds.

Of course, you could do a different swap, like a 944 engine, a 928 V8, or an Audi turbo engine. But unless you do your own metal fabrication, it's still likely to be a very expensive swap. Add to that the difficulty of wiring up a different fuel injection system, running fuel lines, and working out all the quirks of the swap, and you're still out a lot of money and time. And in this case parts will be more expensive than stock 924 parts.

As I see it, the only reasonable thing to do if you're unhappy with the amount of power the 924 has is to sell it, and buy something faster. I wanted a faster car and didn't want to have to sell a kidney to make it fast enough for me, so I got the best of both worlds and got a 931. I really like the look of the 924 in modified form (newer rims, spoiler), love the handling, and am satisfied with the part prices. I didn't want to get a 944 (part prices ridiculously expensive, only 150hp and hard to upgrade) although I really like their look too. I didn't have much money to spend either. The Nissan 300zx Turbo and other 80's Japanese sports cars looked too old and felt too plasticky for me. The 931 was a good choice for me, good power output stock, 924 handling characteristics, better brakes, etc. They are rare cars also, which I like (944's are everywhere around here). And they have great upgrade potential (Patrick's 931 is a great example of this).

You can pick up a very nice 931 here in the US for around $2000, and get a nearly perfect one for $3000. Consider selling your 924 for ~$1500, and you're talking about $1500 spent vs. $3000 for a Chevy 350 swap. Spend the extra $1500 on Koni's, newer wheels/tires, a boost controller and an intercooler, and you can have a 225+hp daily driver with great handling and reliability. Plus you get to tell people that you drive a Porsche Turbo

Jon '81 931 '80 924>>

[wdb]

dreamland, dont miss the rover powered bike.
http://members.aol.com/danmas/examples.htm

[Cbass]

These are some very valid points. I will bring the crazy hotrodder perspective to this.


It is quite possible to swap a powerful engine into a 924 for not a lot of money. You need two things.

1) A cheap source for parts (ergo a wrecker, or resourcefulness in findind parts)

2The ability to do the work yourself, or have a friend do it for nothing.

If you can get that worked out, you can do a really cheap engine swap, and properly too.

[Revis Rose]

Ref: The Chevy V8 Swap
It's doable, and I have seen one that was well done. The fellow that did this conversion is a independent wrench, over in the East Bay (San Francisco Area) by the name of Max Becktel, he specializes in 924/944/968's and but some European cars. It is a very nice '77 924, and if you knew the owner you would know that he is real picky about his cars. (He owns 4, one '89 944, one '86 944, one '79 924(one of my old cars), and the '77 924/V8.) He used the Renegade kit to install it, upgraded it to 944 brakes, installed a torque tube and trans form a 951, which he rebuilt to so he could get a higher 5th gear. Because at 70 MPH a 355ci Chevy doesn't need to turn 3000+ rpm to cruise. When we talked about the cost of this car, he told my he could have bought a mid 80's 32V 928 for the amount that he had into this car. Being that he is a mechanic and is in a close proximity to European Auto Salvage Yard (EASY) in Emeryville, Cali so he could get the parts fairly easy.

How does it handle? Not as good as my '79 924 M-471 with sport Konis did. But a 928 couldn't dust it in the twisty stuff either. He put 250lb springs in the front to keep it from bottoming. All that aside, he tells me the looks of that that poor kid in a hoped up Integer R-Type, is priceless.

Porsche designed the 924 to be a VW, I am told it was to be called a 477, I don't know, but if the 924 had been sold by VW instead of a Porsche, it might be thought of in a different light.

To get back on topic, I have a do it attitude. Because you are only young once, and if you have the desire to try, you would be cheating yourself if you don't.

By the way about my '81 931. I just found a set of hubs, spindles and trailing arms to convert it to M-471. I still haven't decided whether I am going to keep it a turbo or not. So the Chevy or Rover V8 conversion is still open an option for me.

And John for you base line figures a, V6 Mustang, 3210# and 190Hp, gives a power to weight of 16.9, and for $750, (cold air kit & duel exhaust) you can get the ratio up towards 15.3 and that is with the AC still installed, or having the interior gutted out. It will never handle as well as any of my Porsches will, but it is not a slouch. Were dependable transportation is concerned, it's a nice car, and that is what I bought it for. I went out to the junk yard today, and as I was driving down there I was thinking boy is it nice not having to rely on my track car as a daily driver, anymore.
Ok off of my soap box.
And Keep the Faith guys,

[Cbass]

I prefer the ideas of the 1.8 and the 951 swap myself. Let's face it, the Germans make the best engines. There is just no way I would want to put a V8 in a 924. If I wanted a light V8 powered sportscar, I would get an 1st gen RX-7, a junkyard 5.0, and a $350 set of motor mounts and new tranny Xmember.

[Guest]

I have been on this forum from time to time and have written about my own V8 swap that IS under way. 68 corvette 327 BUILT. Lots of money has been put into the swap and I would not recommend the task to anyone without the facilities and skills or resorces to do so. I will post some pictures soon to prove to the non-belivers that it can be done.... I don't have a digital camera. I have done all the work myself on the swap and I am very happy with the results thus far. The only problem I have encountered is the clearence for the air breather which is now clearly visible as it is punched through the hood..... no hiding that this is a Chevy V8 porsche.... and I don't want to. I am in the 'young' category and also think of this as a fun project and am more worried about 1/4 mile times on the track than the handling.

[924 turbo]