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Hybrid Turbo for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy, when I get home from work tonight I'll take a look at the K27 turbine housing to see what numbers are stamped on it.

Gegge: A couple of clarifications: we opted NOT to go with the 3LDZ compressor wheel, as its map was not favorable for the targeted air flow. If you look at the two compressor maps posted above, you will see what I mean: I am anticipating that I will need somewhere between 17-21 psi of boost to achieve my BHP goals. Based on that boost level, I will need somewhere between .22 to .26 m^3/sec of airflow, at a pressure ratio somewhere between 2.1 to 2.5. If you plot those numbers on the compressor map, you will see that the 3LDZ wheel would be highly inefficient in that range, whereas the K27 wheel will be right in its sweet spot, somewhere in the range of 75% efficiency.

John @ Majestic was able to find a relatively inexpensive K27 wheel, which was ~$100 brand new from Borg-Warner, so that is the route I'm going. I'll post the part number and compressor map for it as soon as I get them from John.

As for being nearly bolt-on, you are correct. The ONLY modification required to any of these components is some slight machining on the compressor housing in order to accommodate the above-mentioned compressor wheel. Otherwise, everything else is simply plug and play.

I don't have the part number yet for the K27 backing plate, but I'll post it as soon as I get it from John.

The water-cooled bearing housing is definitely a K26 unit. However, John said he was not able to identify where it came from. It was an old core he had sitting on the shelf. He indicated that it actually may not have come from an automotive turbo, but could have come from a diesel truck unit, or even some other type of machinery. The part number is 5326-151-0089. So far, my initial google searches have not uncovered any clues.

The other interesting thing is that the water-cooled Audi unit I picked up from Vaughan had the identical turbine wheel and shaft as the stock series I 931 unit, so that is worth noting, as those turbos should be plentiful in Europe, and a possible source of parts. Also, given that the bearing housing on those units is a direct fit to the stock 931 turbine and compressor backing plates, they could provide an alternative method of creating an inexpensive water-cooled turbo. However, if you use that bearing housing, you would need the oil line attachments parts, you would have to modify them for use with the stock 931 oil lines, and you would have to fabricate your own turbo-to-block bracket. Someone with reasonable access to fabrication tools and skills could probably pull that off without much difficulty.
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15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy wrote:
Dan, can you tell me the exaust housing size number on both your K27 and 3DZ. It's stamped inside turbine inlet.


OT.

Compare a 3DLZ with 3072 (early vs. later 911 turbo)

3DLZ has got a smaller coldside and too large hotside.



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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2292
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need the number inside the turbine inlet, it's stamped in a manner like "6" (on 931 S1, Audi etc).

Can you tell me what number is in 3LDZ housing?
_________________
'83 924 2.5 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 Irish Green hotrod, 2.4S
'89 944 S2
'91 944 S2
'78 924
'78 911 SC 2.5 ss Turbo "Martini"
'82 924S/931 "Gulf" racecar, 330 hp, sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy wrote:
I need the number inside the turbine inlet, it's stamped in a manner like "6" (on 931 S1, Audi etc).

Can you tell me what number is in 3LDZ housing?

I'm not sure what you are looking for. To be clear, the hot side turbine housing is a K27 unit. There is no 3LDZ hot side. The 3LDZ designation is for the compressor wheel. Even the compressor housing (cold side) is a K27 unit. So I don't know which number you are looking for.

In any event, I do not have the K27 compressor housing with me. It is in Waco TX because that is the housing that is being used to assemble my hybrid turbo by Majestic.

As for the turbine housing, there are no numbers stamped anywhere on the inlet or any other interior parts. My K27 turbine housing looks like the ones that gegge posted above. Here are all of the numbers as stamped on that part:

5222 101 6384
179 [some weird symbol] 2
886 |||||

Mine looks very similar to the one on the left in gegge's photo above, except it doesn't have a 'D' after the '6384' and it has a third row of numbers as noted above.

Starting here, you can see hi-resolution photos of the K26 & K27 stuff before I sent it off.
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15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:17 am; edited 2 times in total
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboy wrote:
I need the number inside the turbine inlet, it's stamped in a manner like "6" (on 931 S1, Audi etc).

Can you tell me what number is in 3LDZ housing?


OT.

According to PET:

25 Turbine housing 3LD-11.1 5222 101 6320
25 Turbine housing K27-11.11 5327 100 6309


#11 is the answer you are looking for.
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
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Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2292
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bingo!

Sorry Gegge, I missed your answer on previous page...

If it's 11 stamped inside the turbine inlet, I'd like to have one of those turbine housings.

Gegge, I presume you have one leftover when you're making hybrid, right?
_________________
'83 924 2.5 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 Irish Green hotrod, 2.4S
'89 944 S2
'91 944 S2
'78 924
'78 911 SC 2.5 ss Turbo "Martini"
'82 924S/931 "Gulf" racecar, 330 hp, sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed something interesting going throu KKK lists yesterday.

The shaft and turbine wheel assembly for 924 turbo, 924GT, 924GTS AND 944 turbo S got the same number: 5326-120-5002.

The non-water cooled bearing house is the same as for early Audi: 5326-150-0011

The compresor backplate is the same for all 2660, 2664 and 924GTS: 5326-151-5701

By the way, all KKK info you ever need! A super website for look-up and reference:

http://www.turbo3k.com/

I donīt understand the language, but it doesnīt matter.

It is all there, crossreference, pictures and measurements!
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gegge wrote:
http://www.turbo3k.com/

That is one awesome site! And if you get creative with Google, you can even see most of it in your favorite language.

Now, boys & girls, you're all gonna love this. On the left we have the as-yet-to-be-identified K26 water-cooled bearing housing, which John @ Majestic pulled off of his core shelf. On the right, what have we here???? Can anybody guess????



Think easy-peasy. As in, there shouldn't be much mystery at all where that water-cooled bearing housing came from. There's a clue buried on this page.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 697
Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant Dan! And love the site you found. Cheers PLD
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The compressor housing seems small for a K27, and is VERY similar to K26 from a 944? The turbinehousing is also familiar, 944 too?

Referring to www.356-911.com, do you know the details of the hybrid upgrades?

Guessing of:
V1 2664
V2 2667
V3 2670
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good Gegge!!! You are close, very close.

So, the part of main interest is the K26 water-cooled bearing housing, pictured above. What threw me off is that the part number stamped on the bearing housing doesn't match ANYTHING in any of the Borg-Warner catalogs, nor on the turbo3k.com website. For reference purposes, the part number on both bearing housings pictured above is 5326-151-0089. I've search high and low, and have found no reference to that part number (although there was a bunch of K26 stuff listed in the 5326-151- family).

HOWEVER, I am pretty firmly convinced that my bearing housing is in fact just a plain-jane stock 951 K26 water-cooled bearing housing, part number 5326-150-0020. On the turbo3k.com website, this is the ONLY water-cooled bearing housing listed for the K26, and it was used on the 951, the 959-Group B (!!!!), the Lancia Delta S4, and of all things, a "gas generator set" manufactured by company called MAN!

I don't understand the significance of the 5326-151-0089 part number, and I've never physically held a stock 951 K26 unit. However, considering the fact that this bearing housing is a DIRECT replacement not only for the turbine housing AND the compressor housing, but more importantly for the oil lines and 931 bracket, that it MUST be a stock 951 water cooled bearing housing...which of course is FANTASTIC great news for anyone interested in developing a direct bolt-in water-cooled K26 for the 931!

As for the turbo pictured on the right above, it is apparently a hybrid turbo that was developed by Majestic (possibly during the tenure of Majestic's previous owners). I found the photo on Greg Hammond's website, where you can find full details on his build.
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15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thatīs the information I was looking for! Thank you!!!

gegge wrote:

The shaft and turbine wheel assembly for 924 turbo, 924GT, 924GTS AND 944 turbo S got the same number: 5326-120-5002.


Should be easy to bolt a standard or modified 944 turbo then.

So the picture to the right was a 944 with #8 hotside from . Just didnīt notice that it was CNC machined to take a K27 compressor wheel

That is exactly the approach I want to take.
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gegge wrote:
Should be easy to bolt a standard or modified 944 turbo then.

Sure seems like it...if you could get the geometry correct on modifying the 931 exhaust manifold as depicted here, it seems like the 944 turbo unit could be a direct bolt-on.
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-nick  



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2700
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a reason to work so hard just to use a water-cooled turbo? I won't deny that it prolongs the life, but a rebuild is usually only $400 compared to the extra cost and complexity of using a water cooled unit. I'm also not sure how much extra life you get when keeping up with good synthetic oil changes.

Plenty of track folk are known to block the water lines and run a water-jacketed turbo with just oil cooling and I haven't heard of any catastrophic results.

It's cool to find a bolt-on swap, but I'm not convinced if it's worth it.
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15psi boost, MS-II, EDIS, 951 IC, custom intake, Ford 5.0L throttle body, Forge BOV, WB o2, G31 w/LSD, 964 wheels, 968 rear sway, Bilsteins, 200# Welt. springs. A laptop, and a partridge in a pear tree.
1991 964 C4 Cabriolet
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15503
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, -nick, it's sort of a long convoluted story. When I first started down this path (in 2005), I had very little idea of what I was trying to do. I merely sent a stock 931 K26 unit out for rebuild, and was planning to drop it into the UWB project. Somewhere along the way, the UWB project became this insane thirst for the ultimate 931 build, or something close to it anyway.

At that point I started really getting my head around the numbers, and went back to the drawing board to try to come up with the best possible configuration. Based on a target of 350 BHP, I determined that the stock K26 unit could not possibly produce the CFM required, nor could it come close with any measure of efficiency. Of course, since inefficiency = heat gain, and heat is the enemy, my freshly rebuild stock unit just wasn't going to cut it. That started me down the hybrid path. My hybrid will be comprised of the stock 931 turbine, the stock 944 bearing housing, and a stock K27 backing plate+compressor wheel+housing. The ONLY modification required to ANY of this was some machining on the compressor housing that I provided. Everything else is totally completely off-the-shelf units.

As for the water-cooled part, I originally had no intent or desire to go that route because I didn't think it could be done without serious fabrication or cost. However, Vaughan gave me a nifty little Audi unit that appeared to be direct bolt-on. I sent it to John to ask his opinion, and he came up with a bearing housing that was direct bolt-on, which I now believe to be the stock 944 bearing housing.

Since it now seems to be a completely viable and cost effective alternative, my thought is water-cooled = better thermal management. Particularly since I'm now planning to go with electric water pump, I don't have nearly the concerns that many of the racers do of adding heat soak from the turbo to the stock cooling circuit.

In any event, the cost of adding this is very very minimal. Once I get the final tally from Majestic, I'll post the numbers, but I think you will ALL be surprised at how affordably this hybrid turbo can be made. Considering that the main failure mode on the 931 unit was bearing failure due to excessive heat, an option to add a water-cooled bearing housing using a direct bolt-on part seems very attractive. In fact, I may go back and redo all of my turbo cores in this manner. 944 bearing housings should be readily available, and based on the price John quoted me, it only adds 15% to the cost of a stock rebuild. Everything else from a stock 931 K26 can be used in a street / moderately boosted application.
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