Show full size 924Board.org
Discussion Forum of 924.org
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 Technical FAQ924 FAQ (Technical)   Technical924 Technical Section   Jump to 924.org924.org   Jump to PCA 924 Registry924 Registry

Hybrid Turbo for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    924Board.org Forum Index -> Performance Upgrades
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Hybrid Turbo for Ideola's Ultra Wide Body 931 Reply with quote

I had a good long conversation with Dave McGrath of Custom Engineered Performance the other day (same Dave that provided the custom crank trigger wheels not too long ago). While they specialize in 951 development, he was very interested in my project. I've sent him pix and specs on all my turbo stuff, and I'm strongly considering having Dave help me out with the custom turbo. I was busy in the garage yesterday taking a Series II K26 apart, as well as a K27 I recently acquired. Here are all of the pix:

Disassembled K26 on bottom / Disassembled K27 on top


Comparison of K26 & K27 compressor housings


Comparison of K26 & K27 shafts


Comparison of K26 & K27 compressor wheels


Comparison of K26 & K27 turbine housings


K26 compressor housing


K26 compressor plate (~140mm diameter)


K26 compressor wheel (~60mm diameter)


K27 compressor housing


K27 bearing assembly (~160mm diameter)


K27 compressor wheel (~80mm diameter)

_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:13 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Min  



Joined: 04 Nov 2002
Posts: 2368
Location: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice pictures, just curious though, why not cut/weld on a t3 flange and run a garrett? ala Joakim.

Min
_________________
Custom means it didn't come from a box.
1980 n/a with EDIS and Megasquirt II Injection. 7 different colors and counting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I discussed it with Dave. We're going to look at all options. He mentioned that they work closely with the KKK guys that are there in Chicago, who are anxious to compete with Garrett. We'll see. It will all come down to a matter of cost.

It appears to me that going the hybrid will be fairly simple...just a matter of machining a new plate for the K27 compressor housing, and coming up with a way to mount the K27 compressor wheel and K26 turbine wheel on the same shaft. But then again, I'm not the fabricator The other thing to consider is that I already have these components. It'll probably be cheaper to build a hybrid than to incur the cost of a brand new Garrett setup.
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on the custom turbo. After Dave pretty much went incommunicado on me, I decided to give Majestic Turbo a try (John Walzel at Majestic Turbo in Waco TX 800-231-5566). I shipped out a bunch of K26 / K27 bits last week. When they receive my pieces & parts, we will be getting together on my planned build so we can figure out how to make the best of the bits I have plus their turbo-smarts in coming up with a hybrid that will produce the estimated 500-600 CFM I think I need. I'll post back when I hear from John (hopefully later this week).
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John and I spoke late last week. Things are underway. Hope to have an estimate from him by the end of this week.

Incidentally, here is a compressor map for the K27 cold side. This should give you an idea of the power range / CFM I can produce while remaining within the peak efficiency of the K27 compressor.

_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11356
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Dan is ready for his own forum.
_________________
Toofah King Bad
  • Shaggy (1980 931) - Got Boost?
  • Red (1987 924S) - Pro44/Spec944
  • Weiße Scheiße (1987 924S) - In Progress
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasta Monsta wrote:
I think Dan is ready for his own forum.


_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 700
Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love what you're doing Dan. Please keep the rest of us watching, informed. Occassionally hear of these hybrids but no one ever divulges the real truths. Cheers Peter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spoke with John yesterday about my hybrid setup. No price estimate just yet, however, the great news is that it is totally doable, and looks like this is definitely the route we'll be going.

John found a backing plate from a different style K27 that actually mates directly to the K26 bearing housing while fitting the K27 compressor housing directly. The only modification required is to machine a small recess into the inside surface to accommodate the compressor wheel.

We did hit a couple of small snags. The K26 hot side I sent turned out to be cracked (wasn't visible until he cleaned it up), so we're trying to source another one of those. I have an extra at home, but no idea on condition, and I don't want to cannibalize that entire K26 unit if I can help it 'cuz I think it's a good one. John is looking into options for me.

The other unfortunate thing is that one of the two turbine wheels I sent was shot, and the other one managed to get damaged during shipping. He said it's an easy repair that is done all the time, but I'm just bummed because it was a good wheel when I sent it and now I have to pay a few more $$$ to repair it.

The other big piece of news is that even though I sent a K27 unit, it turns out that the compressor wheel is NOT a K27 wheel, but a "3LDZ" wheel. John said that it either superceded the K27 wheel or the other way 'round, but he wasn't sure which. I'm in the process of hunting down a compressor map for the 3LDZ wheel, but no success yet. John is going to contact Borg Warner to see if they have one. Just to verify that the 3LDZ compressor map is close to the K27 posted above.

As for the hybrid results, John confirmed that the compressor map I posted and the HP / CFM targets I posted were definitely well thought out and aligned. So, at least theoretically, this approach should work for what I'm trying to accomplish. Always good to get that confirmation from an expert!!!

Stay tuned!
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears from information on this site that the K27 turbo unit (part number 5222-970-3100) I acquired came from a 930 3.3L produced sometime between 1978 and 1984. Still working on finding a compressor map...

Incidentally, these units frequently come up for sale and relatively inexpensively on eBay & Craigs List. I picked mine up for $50, and John said it was in excellent condition. I'm going to try to find out from him what the part number of the K27 backing plate is so we can post it for future reference. I'm also going to see if he'll be willing to take photos of the ready-to-assemble parts just prior to rebuild.

[EDIT]
This site indicates it was for 1980 onward...

[EDIT]
Wikicars indicates that the 3LDZ was only on 82-84 3.0L 930s...
_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have finally located a compressor map for the 3LDZ (!!!!) thanks to "copbait73" over on Pelican (here's the related thread over there...).

Here's the 3LDZ map:

_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15511
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE:
Looks like we've found an updated K27 compressor wheel that will work and produce a better map than the 3LDZ wheel. As soon as Majestic provides me with part numbers, I'll post back with details. We'll be using the K27 housing I originally sent along, which will receive some slight machining to accept the K27 compressor wheel John has sourced for me.

More exciting, John has located a K26 bearing housing with a water jacket that will accept the stock 931 oil line attachment parts!!!! This is huge. I sent him an Audi unit, but the oil lines were very different and the coolant ports were right next to the oil ports, which would have meant having to come up with a completely custom oil line adapter, along with a completely custom turbo-to-block bracket. With the unit John has found, I'll be able to retain complete bolt-in compatibility with the 931, while gaining the advantage of water cooling during operation, as well as post engine shut off!!! Here are the pix of the unit. Again, as soon as I have a part number from John, I'll post back.

_________________
15 981 GTS | 88 924S SE | 82 931 Holbert | 82 931 Rallye | 81 937 | 81 Euro 931 | 81 Weissach | 80 US 928 | 80 US 931 '941' | 80 US 931 | 80 931 GTR | 79 Sebring | 78 D-Prod Replica | 78 w/D-Prod kit | 78 Poli-Form | 78 Limited Edition | 77 Martini


Last edited by ideola on Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1029
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to read about the K27 backing plate as well as K26 bearing house. Sound like an almost bolt-on approach.
I am considering a 951S compressr wheel for my future projekt, but 3LDZ would suit me fine.
_________________
Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raceboy  



Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2305
Location: Estonia, Europe

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, can you tell me the exaust housing size number on both your K27 and 3DZ. It's stamped inside turbine inlet.
_________________
'83 924 2.5 16v Turbo, 470hp
'67 911 Irish Green hotrod, 2.4S
'89 944 S2
'91 944 S2
'78 924 Carrera GT project
'78 911 SC 2.5 ss Turbo
'82 924S/931 "Gulf", sold
'84 924, turbocharged, sold.
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1029
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#11?
_________________
Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT clone LSD Coilovers
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black with low ET "Phonies"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    924Board.org Forum Index -> Performance Upgrades All times are GMT + 11 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group