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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Heads up: 924 tuning guide in Retro Cars mag! |
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The November 2005 (Issue 29) UK magazine Retro Cars has a 7-page tuning guide for the NA 924 engine, p. 90.
Magazine has two white Hillman Imps and an MG Metro on the cover... yeah, I doubted their cred. too 
Haven't read it yet, just got the mag. Should be interesting...
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'80 924 Turbo |
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Peter_in_AU
Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 2743
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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that's a good mag to check each month. They occasionally have stuff about 924s and they have lots of stuff about getting more power and better handling out of 924-era cars.
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1979 924 (Gone to a better place)
1974 Lotus 7 S4 "Big Valve" Twin-cam (waiting)
1982 924 (As featured on Wikipedia)
Learn to love your multimeter and may the search be with you |
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macBdog
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 1111
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Khal where are you seeing and buying these cool sounding magazines? Every newsagent I go to has the same mcshit: hot 4s, street commodores, motor, wheels, evo, high performance imports etc.
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1979 931 with a 350 chev
1973 911E with EFI
| p-talk wrote: | I'm still convinced the word 'Porsche' makes people crazy in all kinds of ways  |
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Neil924
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| If you guys don't have a scanner, you can send me the mags when you're done with them and I can load them onto my cpu and post them here. |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| macBdog wrote: | | Hey Khal where are you seeing and buying these cool sounding magazines? |
Well, this one I found at one of the newsagents at Indro. Obviously Peter_in_AU has seen it around, too.
The other one (Classic & Sports Car) is in many newsagents. Maybe not some of the smaller corner shops but certainly in the big ones in shopping centres.
Just happened to come across them when they had 924 articles, is all. 
| Neil924 wrote: | | If you guys don't have a scanner |
No problem with the scanner. But I prefer not to host downloads for this stuff. If it was impossible to get, fair enough, I'd send a copy. But mags like Classic & Sports Car are available worldwide. I'd prefer not to steal from them if a I don't have to
BTW, I thought the article was excellent. It was simple but thorough. Unfortunately, for all those horsepower heros out there, it pretty much confirmed the facts most know... you ain't getting more than about 180hp without boost. And even that 180hp requires radical surgery i.e. head from a Turbo (and all that entails) and new pistons, rods, valves, cam, crank, etc... 
They guesstimate about 140hp (on a Euro-spec) with less radical mods i.e. match-porting, new throttle body, new cam and vernier timing wheel, mod'd WUR, new exhaust manifold...
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leadfoot
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Just post the bit on modding a WUR... there is an article on this in the pelican BBS and if it is an improved way it would be nice to know. I was thinking about the differences in design between the audi turbo WUR and the 924 WUR.
It seems that the Audi WUR would be a similar design to the 928 WUR as in the link below.
Having a Vac/Boost barb fitting into the centre diaphragm would enable control pressure to be raised/lowered with manifold pressure as the lower diaphragm moves up and down..... BTW I may be totally wrong in this theory but i'll give it a whirl...
http://www.landsharkoz.com/images/pdf/wurfix.pdf
The cold control temperature would end at around 37degC so this is fairly quick as far as engine warm up goes....
So in dealing with hot temp control temp changes ...above 37degC = 44psi approx - atmospheric pressure = 14.7 = 29.3psi difference.
If you go along these lines then by 14.7psi manifold pressure added will cause the central diaphragm section to equal that of the control pressure at roughly 29.4psi i.e 14.7atmospheric + 14.7manifold = warm control pressure 44psi - 14.7psi manifold reduction pressure.... but this is for a 928....
Can it take 14.7 psi pressure on the diaphragm.... 
The 924 N/A has no lower diaphragm and this would mean the WUR needs to be changed. Control pressure in the 924 is also higher at 47-59psi... and as far as adjusting the warm control level, well it requires pulling apart the WUR and fiddling with the inside bits...
As to how much extra fuel this can deliver into the system well I'll let someone else take over with the maths now.
But as it goes....
injectors open at 35-50psi (I hope they're all opening at the same pressure  )
If system pressure is raised to 75psi (using shims on the side of the mixture control unit) and control counter pressure is made at its lower limit of 47psi then this is 28psi difference... if you add 7 psi then this would be very close to instant opening of the injectors : if they're opening at the lower limit that is...
This all might be meaningless banter... but I'm on holidays
someone with CIS knowledge want to enlighten me...
Leadfoot
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1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress... |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| leadfoot wrote: | | Just post the bit on modding a WUR... |
Actually mate, they don't detail how to modify the WUR, they just suggest that you can, and that the UK racers do this to get more fuel.
I think the comment was something along the lines of, "leave it to a Bosch specialist."
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leadfoot
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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hey I'm beginning to think I can write non desciptive magazine article to now??
The title of this article will be... how to achieve 700hp from the 924....
it will consist of getting tuners to do all the work as there the only ones who are "specialists in the field"
first they have a custom twin cam head made for the n/a, then they stroke it out to 7 litres, they O ring the block and weld it to the head (makes for better chamber sealing)... aparenlty some racer did this somewhere in the future...
Next they get a T800 tubo off a mack truck or something that looks just as impressive,as it only makes it peak horsepower between 6300 and 6350 rpm you have to roll it down a hill at 5:1 gradient to let the lag catch up enough to start the beast... so if you residing at sea level you can keep dreaming move to higher ground or invest in a tow truck...
BTW I was talking about flywheel HP and not at the wheels cause I know nothing about gearboxes although if you can find a supra six speed and a hilux diff you could slap them on it cause everyone in streetmachines doing it I hear... hey with the titanium driveshaft and all the bearing water and oil cooled it will hold down till I upgrade to twin turbos....
Then I put up some really glossy but extremely fuzzy close up pics and make sure I leave alot of air powered tools in the background so you think I've done it with proficiency.
I mention bosche motorsports a few more times and any other brands I got freebies for and this article is donein record time.
Too Easy... this thing writes itself
Leadfoot
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1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress... |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough, the article is basic in that respect. But it has useful info for novices like myself. And it appears to be good info, too.
Not like a certain 'board member who gives super-useful rants: 
| ESC944 wrote: | You can stroke it and boost it, you can do lots of things. Expense is realtive to how you do it and where you get your parts.
The 931 head and VW pistons would be work it, assuming your stroker kit didnt include everything as pistons go, if you could get rods and crank cheap enough that buying and using the VW pistons would be saving you money, I say VW Pistons. The 931 head and a modified or custom header and tapped oil pan... and you have the makings of a nice motor on the cheap... stroking would cost the same on a 931 motor. So having either block makes no difference. The only advantage to the 931 motor comes in the case of the internals, but if you are changing that... who cares.
The head and pistons will be critical. Then comes the Head Gasket.
The turbo... lots of choices, wastegate and blow off valve... if you are using CIS, well you will need the right pieces.
You can fire an injector into the intake side of a turbo or supercharger, but it is not recommended in the long term. The fuel is under pressure and can wear on the compressor blades of centrifugal units. Roots or screw units would be better for this, but they tend to less efficient than a centrifugal SC or turbo and... you have to worry about fuel pooling.
Now lets just say you dont have to worry about your boost source, if you inject fuel into it, just like in a draw thru carb + boost setup, you will have issues if you try and use an Intercooler, fuel "will" pool in the intercooler, which is very bad.
If you want to inject the fuel farther back from the intake to ensure better mixing, fine do that, but do not inject it into the boost source, bad idea with regard to wear and fuel pooling.
The limit on boost, is relative to the compression ratio, limits of the engine components to handle the increased stress, and detonation threshold.
Raise the octane, retard timing, cool the charge, etc... all these things reduce the chance of detonation. Without detonation the motor will live so long as you dont exceed the stress limits. Heat is a killer so is increase pressure on the piston, rods and crank. So is stroking with regard to side wall stress and all that....
As for the DODGE motor... yea rebuilt 1250 with new head, sell the head -150.00 back. Use that to get a DOHC and the bits to do the conversion. 3-6 hours later you have a DOHC monster just waiting for boost.
Anything over 15 PSI gets sick. 15 PSI in any motor effectively doubles the displacement.
So 300-350 hp... yea thats about 2k total invested and a no brainer with a 2.2 or 2.5, maybe 2500 at most, depending on extras... extras mean more than 350 HP. 931 level HP and more Torque stock and they quickly climb past a 931 as you increase boost. Side by side, the dodge out performs the 931 in hp returned for boost, and thats on a SOHC, but convert to DOHC and it gets silly fast. |
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Eturbo924
Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 2212
Location: Londonderry NH
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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The WUR change was done by Jon a long time ago. Check his page. He has the information on which WUR he used and where to get a refurbished one for reasonable money. You of course could just go to a salvage yard and pick one off an audi... but there is no way to know if it is functioning up to its full potential.
There is definately power to be had with the proper modifications. Not a fire breathing monster with our big bucks... but if you want that get a 951 or just a mustang.
My car, when tuned properly is quick impressive for a 924. Of course I frequently do not have the fuel mixture correct and it bogs down... ah well. It is only a weekend car now anyway. When she is on... man it is fun. Of course my Forester XT will still smoke it even on its best day. 0-60 in 5.3 sec is hard to beat!
Eric
www.geocities.com/eturbo924
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1982 924
1992 968
2003 C4S
Parts Parts Parts and More parts.
E-mail me for parts you need!
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leadfoot
Joined: 11 Dec 2002
Posts: 2222
Location: gOLD cOAST Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Eric... I'll check that out...
As for a gettinga 951... it's amazing how many have dropped in price down here now that they're getting to be a 20 year old car... but like your car, mine's pretty much doing the same thing if at all. I ride my bike to work and the weekend car is mainly the panel van, as it's hard to get a 9ft surfboard on the roof of a 924...
BTW about your forester XT... how does that differ from the GT, I'm not sure which out of the forester models is the better one??...
I think the girlfriends coming round to trading in the panel van for an upgrade.... are they an expensive to maintain??
cheers,
Leadfoot
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1981 ROW 924 Turbo -
carbon fiber GT mish mash
LS1 conversion in progress... |
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Eturbo924
Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 2212
Location: Londonderry NH
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Well it might be called a GT in other parts of the world. The XT here in the USA is the 2.5 turbo model. It basically has a slightly reworked and detuned STI engine. It has tons of low end torque that just keeps on coming all the way to red line.
There are some issues with the foresters. The biggest thing that I can find is that the 2004 XT (turbo) has a lumpy idle and many of the dealers are too stupid to read their own tech manuals. There is a fix for it but you basically need to point it out to them.
Also mine had a 4th gear syncro go out at 17K miles. Nothing I did too it mind you. The dealer replaced the 3rd and 4th and now 3rd is not perfect... but liveable.
Overall I am quite happy with it. Very powerful, quite reliable... so far and excellent fun in the snow. There are very few people that know how much power this thing actually has. I have smoked so many cars off the line. No need to even speed. The thing just rockets past anything this side of the Cyan Turbo S. That is the only SUV that can beat the forester to 60 as far as I know. 5.2 for the 100K plus Porsche. I only paid 18.5K for mine 1 year used with 16.9K miles on it.
Not a bad deal!
All the best
Eric
_________________
1982 924
1992 968
2003 C4S
Parts Parts Parts and More parts.
E-mail me for parts you need!
Drive Fast! |
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ESC944
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 747
Location: FL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Khal---- check my signature... about my rants.
Dont care for them do ya... hahaha yea ok, drink another one and just scroll down and skip them. HA!
You know... I do rant or ramble... but their is some good information, general information in most of them hahaha To point someone in the right direction or give them food for thought.
CIS hemmm... lets get into this just a bit, basically we are talking about playing with the Warm up regulator... to increase fuel delivery, depends on which CIS... the volvo guys do a lot, so do the VW guys, and the 911 guys, not to mention AUDI.
The limits to modification are really limited to the CIS configuration, CIS-E being a preferred configuration to tune.
I have a few mods of my own that work well with CIS-E. Especially when adding BOOST.
I have collected a lot of information both in the way of knowledge and good resources links so I will share a bit of them.
Obviously we know that their are a few different configurations of CIS their are a few different discusions about fuel pressure and related data on this board:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=14723&highlight=cis
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=15017&highlight=cis
Search CIS and so on.. on the board.
Anyway some other links:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/CIS.html
Trouble shooting and tuning:
http://www.icbm.org/erkson/ttt/engine/fuel_injection/#custom
Installing, tuning and modification of CIS on A toyota:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/1205/CIS.html
Other
http://www.dolphinsci.com/vw/cis-fi.html
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=66813
http://members.rennlist.com/jimwms/CIS/books.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~altimatum/digiconvert.htm
Dual CIS-pump setup on CIS-E turbo?
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3466
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/subaru/1/CIS/
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/subaru/1/CIS/CIS%20Versions%20Table.htm
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2551
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1558760
AUDI5000 CS Quattro Avant &Turbo Modification:
http://www.homestead.com/Ben_Swann/TurboMods.html
CIS-E CONVERSION
http://www.humanspeakers.com/audi/cis-e.htm
http://www.users.bigpond.com/INTERJECT/KJETRON.HTM
http://oregonstate.edu/~calamara/kjet/articles_b21.html
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=751684
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=395342&page=1
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=594294
PERFORMANCE FOR A VOLVO 240 -- Knowing about a 240 is why I know what I know about CIS, before I got a 924...
http://www.turbobricks.org/mods.php?content=art0017
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=8501
http://forums.turbobricks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13 |
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Khal
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 4872
Location: Sunny and lovely interior BC, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Y'know I'm only joking, mate!
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'80 924 Turbo |
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ESC944
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 747
Location: FL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Khal, yea bud I know... but you are right I do rant and rave and ramble...hahahaha a rolling stone gathers no moss... Yea like that makes sense. But yea always a lot to say.... bwahahahaha
No worries its all good. |
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924 FAQ (Technical)
