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924 sucks vs 944?
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Sleykin  



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Medford, Oregon USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on where you live. I was quoted $1500 for the belts alone. They said a water pump would be another $300 and the seals would be more depending on what they ran into it could go as high as $2500 to do a complete fron of engine service.... So I learned to do it myself
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Glenn Neff
Medford, OR
87' 924S
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gohim  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 4459
Location: Rialto, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZV,

I don't know anything about the shop that you state gave you a quote for $600-$700 to change the belts, rollers, and waterpump on your car, but obviously, either they didn;t realize that your car is a 924S, and not a 924, or they are quoting the cost of parts or labor only.

With a new waterpump, the cost of parts alone from most aftermarket parts suppliers will be over $600, and from an authorized Porsche Dealer, much more than the price you were quoted.

there are shops that will quote the labor alone, in the $600-$700 range. Any shop that misquotes the price by that much is not going to have the P9201 tensioning gauge, or the experience necessary to perform a quality job.
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Sleykin  



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Medford, Oregon USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nut to pick nits But when I did my belts less than a year agoi I bought all the parts including the seals and rollers and a new (not rebuilt) waterpump for around $450. I did do some serious shopping around and got a "kit" from Auto-Atlanta that had most of the parts but it was off on some and I had to replace some of the parts they supplied with the correct ones at additional cost. Took about 4 weeks to get things as straight as I could with them. Had I just bought everything from my local supplier I would have only spent about $375 for everything. My car does not have the spring tensioner and replacing that would have added close to $200. Except for some "specialty" parts like the "gold plated" sparkpug wires the 924S parts don't seem much worse than other imports or even a more modern US car. Like my 95 cougar V-6... the yards want $800 and up for an engine with more than 100K miles on it. Used heads are $250 and up. New cam and lifters around $500. Then there are parts for my 63 Corvette ... Just say parts for the 87 Porsche really aren't that bad in the grand scheam of things The Porsche is not that tough to work on either. Just different.
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Glenn Neff
Medford, OR
87' 924S
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mikecoupegt  



Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:14 am    Post subject: apples and oranges Reply with quote

Timstar;

I am currently looking at purchasing a 924. I have been reading all the posts on this topic, as well as the board. I think the 924 is an ideal starter Porsche. One that after being purchased would be an enjoyable and fun addition to any stable. That being said, I have always liked the understated looks of the car. The 944 is all too visible, and popular. You see them every where. The 924 is now a rare site on the road and at the track. I have also owned and restored a 914. Yes it was a lot of work. I took what was basically a parts car and restored it. It had the 1.7 litre motor, but I put 911s gears in the transmission. That alone woke the car up!

In my mind anything different is good. Why blindly follow a leader like a lemming and not be happy. I like to be different. That is why I owned a 914 before the PCA racing was really popular! I also admire a car that will handle first and be fast second. Anyone can go fast in a straight line, but to be on the race track and only tap the brakes going into turn 1 at Mont Tremblant, and get right on the tail of a 84+ turbo with a 1.7 litre 914 = Priceless.

Sorry for the ramble folks. I like both the 914 and the 924, for the same reasons!
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geddes66  



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 129
Location: Bakersfield CA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my 924 three years ago for 500.00 with a blown headgasket and a zillion electrical problems. It was 2 years before we got it running the timing belt was only 40.00 and I foeget howmuch the german headgasket was. She was made in '76 and is obviosly a little makeshift in the design and engineering areas. (separate fans for ac and heat/vent for example) She has had a very hard life, there are three areas where when the light hits it right you can see rumples and the rear bumper is mis-aligned by 1/2". On hot days the oil pressure is just below 3 k/cm2 @ 3000 rpm, with 15/50 synthetic. It is intended to be my son's first car, he turned 16 in June. As far as I am concerned it is perfect, seats only two, (speakers in the back seats this way you can't cram 5 friends into it to gode you into being more stupid than you already are as a teenager) is not too fast, (discourages street racing) is delicate enough to demand repect, (discourages abuse) and above all, is way cool cause it's a PORSCHE!

If you do not ask your thorobred horse to fly or swim and accept it as a horse you will be happy with the results.
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JP Shelton  



Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 34
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZV,

There are two shops in my corner of the world that quoted me $850.00 for the whole front of engine sheebang with a new waterpump, so the price you got quoted doesn't seem too far out of line. I wouldn't assume that they don't know what they're doing, or that they made some sort of mistake in the quote, or don't have the right tools to do the job, or the experience required to do it. In my corner of the world, front-engine Porsches are still pretty common, and there are plenty of independent shops around who can repair them. I think that has something to do with why I can get the job done cheaper than what someone in another part of the country could where these cars are fairly rare and there aren't as many independent shops able or willing to work on them.

This whole "front of engine" thing on 2.5 liter Porsche engines has been beat nearly to death, but since it is a subject that isn't quite dead, I'll chime in and try my best to kill it.

Call me crazy, but the 32 horsepower advantage that a 2.5 liter Porsche engine has over the 2.0 liter variety in North American spec is worth going through the FOE service issues to me. And so is the the reduced harshness of the 2.5 versus the 2.0. Obviously, that's an individual choice, but one that's a "no brainer" to me.

Porsche's 2.5 litre isn't the only "interference" engine with a belt-driven cam. Most modern cars and light trucks have them. With timing belts, the issue really isn't mileage, but time of service.

Conventional wisdom might be accepted by the masses, but that fact doesn't make the wisdom truly wise. So it is with the FOE service on Porsche's 2.5 litre engine.

Look, if you put new balance shaft belts and a new cam drive belt in your P-car today and drive it 30,000 miles, to you really think the belts are smart enough to self-destruct if you drive them 30,001 miles or even 40,000 miles? Is the belt arrrangement used on the 2.5 litre engine really that different from that used on most modern cars? I believe the answer on both counts is no.

Do you really need Porsche tool P9201 to do this belt job? Not really. The tool I did mine with is the Optibelt, which sells for about 50.00 bucks, and it's the same one I used to check the belt tension on my 87 Pathfinder. Set the balance belts to 28 lbs and the timing to 40 pounds, drive it 2K, check it, adjust if necessary, and drive happy. The belt doesn't care what you measure the tension with, just so long as it's within the proper range, and there is a "range", even on a P-car engine.

It's not rocket science - it's drive belts!

You can get the parts that you need to do the job for $500.00 or less, including the Optibelt tool to measure the tension.

Nowhere in my owner's manual (Canadian Market 87 924S) does it mention anything about changing the timing belt at 30,000. It does state that the belts should be checked periodically -basically every year for normal mileage, and that's not a bad idea.

The PO of my car had it taken in at the suggested interval to have the condition and the tension of the belts checked. He had this done at Beverly Hills Porsche, Rusnack Porsche, and Newport Beach Porsche, and that belts didn't get changed until the water pump was replaced at well over 60,000 miles. And this is with having Porsche dealers doing the checking!

Do you need to keep your eye on them? Yes, you do. Do you really need to change these belts every 30,000 miles? Well, it's your car. But I don't do mine that way, and the previous owner didn't, either. I do mine by time of service, not distance traveled. But it's my car, and if I do bend the valves, then my fellow P-car enthusiasts can all collectively say "I told you so", though I doubt that will happen.

I checked on the prices to have this done, because my car was due for it and I live in a place where HOA rules prohibit me from working on my car. I decided to use my Dad's garage and do it myself. I expect I'll get past the 30,000 mark without grenading my motor, based on past experience.

The point is, don't let this "belt-driven cam on an interference engine" scare you away from driving and enjoying a P-car with 2.5 litre Porsche power. I know I don't.

Is the FOE service time consuming? Yep, and it's a monumental PITA for sure. Is it expensive? Not if you shop around for parts, and bite the bullet and do the job yourself. Is it worth it? Yep. It's certainly easier and cheaper than trying to get a 2.0 liter 924 motor to pump out an extra 32 ponies.

-JP
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Racing  



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 374

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly speaking.
The 924 and the 944 are OLD cars these days.
Contemplate that for a second....

What people are doing is to compare a by now 30yr old design to whatīs contemporary.
Lets get fair in other words...

If you sum this post up you see a group of people discuss the major cost of replacing a cam belt.
Take notice...
Thatīs for a 20-30yr old(ballpark) car!

Yes,the two models indeed have shortcomings,but thatīs fairly common for any old car isnīt it.?

So,whatīs the bottom line here?
As far as iīm concerned it comes down to funfactor,and the 24/44 series cars indeed is a blast to drive.
Iīve got VASTLY more powerful cars around,trust me on that,but the 931 iīve got at least is a fun little car to toss around the local highways.
If you take a moment to ponder the whole thing a little iīd say that these days the 24/44 is such old cars that they tend to cater to the hobbyist/do it yourselfer.
Then i for one would take a long good hard look at the economics of it all,and that means the 44 will take a DEEEEEEP dive being the more costly one to service.
With a little mods the old 24 can be improved on easily to match the performance of the 44.
Now PLUESE donīt look at the power nr only!
Have in mind that thereīs a fair amount of weight difference too..

Is the 24 a good hoobyist choice?
Iīd reply that with a definite yes.
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Racing  



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 374

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think of it...
Just read this post over at the 44 pelican board about a guy blabbin his mouth about he spanked the living daylights out of a 70;s camaro.
Talk about a misunderstanding of what the car is for...
A stock 163hp 44...
Reeiiiiiggghhhtttttt.....

This fool would be more then welcome to meet any of mine.
Anyday.
Anywhere.
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gohim  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 4459
Location: Rialto, CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing,

Most 70's Camaros had small 6s (some inline and some Vs). At some point the standard engine became a four banger on the basic models (I don't remember when that happened, mid-late 70s-early 80s?).

Besides being poorly made, the 2nd generation models got heavier, and slower than the first. and don't forget the US auto industry was working on first generation emissions controls which sapped the power from all engines.

My 2nd car was a 71 Mercury Capri (imported by Lincoln Mercury from Ford of Germany because Ford would not share the Mustang). Mine was originally a 1.6L (Ford Cortina engine, same block used by Formula Fords) with electrics from Lucas (Prince of Darkness). The second day I had the car, the Lucas alternator died, stranding my in downtown LA during rush hour.

After using the car to drive to college for a year, I installed a 2.0L engine and transmission from a 74 Capri (only had 12K miles on it), dumping the Cortina pushrod engine, slush box transmission, and Lucas electrics. I removed the smog pump and air injection plumbing that was used on the 74 engine that was not installed on the 70-72 engines, but it was never as strong as the 2.0L engine that came in my brother's 72 Capri. I kept the 3.88 rear end (2.0L engines came with a 3.44, and the 2.6L V6 engines were equipped with 3.22).

The 2.0L engine was only rated about 100hp, but it only weighted around 2000 pounds (or less). As time went on, I added headers, a free-flow exhaust, and a full Interpart road racing suspension.

I sucessfully outran several new and older Camaros and Firebirds during stoplight drags. I set the car up for hill racing, and mostly did canyon runs. This was not a difficult feat, as most of those cars were SLOW, and none of them could TURN.
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gohim  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 4459
Location: Rialto, CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shelton,

The cost of parts is always dependent on where you buy them. For the 924S, I prefer to buy most of the critical parts from an authorized Porsche Dealer, or an authorized Porsche Aftermarket Reseller (Performance Products is one) because of the two year unlimited mileage warranty.

As a PCA Member I get a deep discount on suggested retail prices from authorized Porsche Dealers, and some/many of the parts are priced close to the aftermarket price anyway.

An exception to this is the price of the timing belt, but Porsche will pay for a complete engine repair (parts and labor) if the timing belt breaks under warranty, and the engine is damaged. No Aftermarket Supplier will do the same for two years after you buy parts from them.

I have looked at numerous rebuilt water pumps from different rebuilders, I would not install any of them in my car. The only new aftermarket waterpumps I have seen are made by a company named "LASCO" ($150-$200). The quality of the LASCO waterpumps is poor, with rough castings, poor machining, and inferior bearings (excessive play).

I have seen the same problem with some aftermarket rollers, and pulleys (some aftermarket supplied rollers and pulleys are the same as those supplied by Porsche) some are poorly made from inferior materials and/or with inferior workmanship.

The point I am trying to get across is that you can buy parts cheap. And you can get all of the parts for the front of engine service cheaper that the price from a Porsche Dealer. But, you won't get parts with the same warranty, and you probably won't get parts of the same quality.

Quality parts, like quality labor, costs more. You can do the labor yourself, and save the labor cost, and you can buy the cheapest parts you can find, it's your car. Personally, I can't see the average shop going out to buy the P9201, and other tools needed (about $600-$700 worth), then selling you the parts (which you say can be bought for less than $500), doing the labor (at least eight hours, for $350?), and warrantying the job for that little profit.
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Racing  



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 374

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gohim,iīm with you to a sense.
Point is that this guy obviously thought to himself that he met one of those that the legends are built around.At least as far as i read the post.
Point is that i run into this downright blabbin bullshit all over the net,and seems to keep doing so over the yrs.
Donīt get me wrong,the 24/44 series cars are wonderful little toys but the answer to all ills it is not.

Dunno how it works over in the US,but over here i see the "gay whistle boys"(blow off valve into free air) run their mouths all the time about how fast their escort cosworths/subaruīs/mitsu evoīs are all the time.
Now donīt get me wrong,but these younger representatives amongst us really needs to learn reality from time to time.
Just because one or two of these run in the 10;s not all do,and most def not all the time.

Racers are racers no matter what the badge on the hood says.

Iīve been one of the engines behind legalized streetracing around here.
Have streetraced myself for over 20 yrs(and please keep the comments on that-i know,but the point is that it DOES work a lot different around here than in the US).
Run a pack of pro-streeters aso.

Anyways.
Thereīs a new era.
No argument there,and when a while back someone around this board asked for new takes i for one thought to myself that if THAT`S what people are after seek it out amongst the gay whislte crowd-cause thatīs where it is to be found these days.
Take turbochargings increasing popularity for instance.
Point is that it wonīt be long before the "old school" guys catch on-often being more conservative-and perform the same thing.
Just look at Bob Rieger,the DTE crowd aso.

None the less...

Showed up at one of the amply called "blackraces"(which for the record are as legal as they get these days) with my 69 pro-streeter.
A simple stock bore 327 residing under the hood(or more to the point protuding through it)A left over mech roller,ported old camel humps and a 850AD ontop the NOS cheater plate.
Total chassis weight 3600lbs+(car is all steel)
In other words as simple and cheap as it gets.(Motor total is 2500 USD)
Only real hi-po parts in that car is the roller stick and thatīs about it.

The regular cossie,mitsu,subaru crowd around frowning upon my arrival and commenting about that old school POS not being as fast as it sounds.

Being polite i asked what they ran in the 1/8.(This is on a closed off regular street,so traction is limited to say the least).Reply was mid 8;s..and they were soooooo fast...still looking over at the 69 camaro of mine with discust.

K.

Up the staging lane i purge the juice.
Simple burnout for the M&H;s.Water n all.(I after all AM an oldie )
Stage...
Had a late 90;s mustang beside me.

Juiced it out of the hole,which made me go up in smoke...
Later found out that i put down 48 meters(about 50 yrds) of 17,5 inch wide tracks...
Spun over 60 meters.
Clocked in at 7,6 and 170+ trap.(Car runs clock clean 6,8 with some traction-Ie;low 10,1;s in the full 1320)

Crowd got completely wild-in every aspect.
Applause all over the place-even standing ovations.

The truly SAD point of the story is that when i returned to the pits the gay whistle crowd was no where to be found...

This because of an honest MEASELY 327 and some laughing gas in a 3600lbs+ heavy weight SLED

This isnīt to blow my own horn,just to say that for those willing to lift their sights a little thereīs a LOT to both see and learn.
Most so called "racers" to me are nothing but ignorant idiots that hasnīt understood the first thing about a learning curve,or put another way these guys are nothing BUT the racers they claim to be.
First lesson is; be humble.

Please donīt get me wrong.
There ARE true racers amongst the turbo/early 20;s crowd too.
Around here thereīs a group calling themselves "grottköping racing"(Caveville racing-free translation)that i admire a lot.
They approach racing from the right perspective,and as a result get faster by the season.

DTE that i mentioned above with Dr Ernie and Johan Wigstrand lately dynoed their 482CBB with twin Holset HX55;s.
Result was 1992 horse at 0,9 bar boost on methanol.
Numbers making even the supra crowd crawl down on their knees..
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D Hook  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 3112
Location: Omaha, NE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not aware of any Camaro that came with a four cylinder engine. Do you know what year these appeared? Just curious.
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Sleykin  



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 758
Location: Medford, Oregon USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 69 camero came with a 327 and a turdbo 250 from the factory. The 250 was meant for 6cylinders. I also found a paper coffee cup from the assembly plant under the back seat. It was filled with body screws as the assembly folk were graded on how many screws they put in. That was also the car that cured me of buying GM stuff.
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87' 924S
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Neil924  



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 4225
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil924 wrote:
Neil924 wrote:
Bias. Why can't the thread title be changed to 924 vs. 944?
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gohim  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 4459
Location: Rialto, CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a quick Internet Search...

2.5L four bangers (90hp) were introduced in 1982 with the 3rd Gen. Camaro.

Second Gen. 250ci I6 engine was rated 90hp, down from 150hp about five years earlier.

350ci V8 engines were rated between 130hp and 170hp the same year.

No wonder I could outdrag so many Camaros with my 100hp 2.0L four banger Capri. Close to 1/2 the weight and almost as much hp as many of the V8s Camaros.
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