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16v head swap? lets work it out!
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 190
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll just leave this here!

https://youtu.be/O3IWAH_Y1wo

This is only a prototype engine for now, but it proves its possible! Actual head which I’ll fit into the car is in the machine shop being cleaned ready for the marathon of welding I’ll need to do!

Happy Christmas everyone!
_________________
UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 8274
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my god you started it !
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SUPERCHARGED Ruby-sh 924
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So awesome... amazing
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1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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MikeJinCO  



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 967
Location: Maysville, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations, a true marvel of engineering.
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Mike
Poco a Poco, #033 '78 Vintage racer, SCCA Dp-81
'77 924
cricketdesigns.com
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Euro924S2 do you have a link to your Bio related car build? That is one impressive NA I seem to have missed and now you have taken it to another level
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1088
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it´s a BDP (Belt Drive Porsche-type)

Instead of Ford BDA
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Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 190
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike9311 wrote:
Euro924S2 do you have a link to your Bio related car build? That is one impressive NA I seem to have missed and now you have taken it to another level


Thanks everyone! This is only a prototype for the moment since its running 924 NA pistons without any skim of the block so down at around 6.8:1 CR. This head has also been a nightmare to weld and the more I’ve tried the worse I’ve made it! The main challenge with this conversion is the relocation of the head bolt holes. On the head gasket side it’s easy enough, but within the head, down in the depths amongst that valve guides access is very limited! I’ve tried and experimented with all sorts of TIG torches, made my own, adapted off the shelf ones and purchased lots of them! The best is about 4” long and only 1/2” max diameter, but that gets a bit unhappy when pushing 200amp through it! The 2nd biggest problem is contamination! Bathed in oil all its life, this cast aluminium is saturated with the stuff and with access so poor the weld, grind, weld, grind... cycle is difficult and tedious! Couple that with pre-heating the head before each weld etc and I grew impatient and tried to push on without proper cleaning etc ect. I also tried a few different styles of insert and I’d long since consigned this head as a prototype which would never be used on the car, but it’s taught me a lot and has now proved the concept and confirmed there were no insurmountable problems.
The head I hope will go into my car is at the machine shop as we speak and is being treated to a Len acid dip and descaler treatment (neither of which I did last time) to try and clean as much contamination off it as possible. I will then so far more grinding before I start welding this time too! Once it pressure tests ok, the rest of the process is quite quick moving oil galleries etc etc.

As for a bio, I don’t have much on here. I find the remote picture hosting a real hassle so most of my build threads are over on www.porsche924.co.uk (my user name on there is DrJohn - I’m a trauma and orthopaedic surgeon so this is just a hobby I try to make time for when I can!) You can read about my trials and tribulations with superchargers on my car for the past 10 or 11 years! I hope this 16v head and the new TVS1320 charger I have on the shelf will see me able to reach the 300bhp goal I set myself 6 years ago!

_________________
UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp


Last edited by Euro924S2 on Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 2130
Location: MI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe get ahold of a local place that does smaller scale forging and ask if they can bake your head to like 1,000 degrees in a forge furnace to burn all the oil out of it?
Just a thought..
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Euro924S2  



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 190
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thought! Although I’m not sure where the balance comes between burning off the oil and causing problems due to the heat. I spoke with the machine shop and how they pre-treat all aluminium LS7 blocks which split their bores and need welding and they said they just dip them and preheat. They suggested I pre-heat the heat before welding to ‘take the stress out of it’ and when I asked how hot I should get it, they said ‘quite hot, almost to the point the valve seats are falling out of it’! Implying if I get it too hot and the seats fall out that’s more hassle having either then or new ones fitted back in!

I’ve bought a stove suitable to heat the head and hopefully get it much hotter than the electric powder coating oven I was using which struggled to get it over 140*C.
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UK spec '83 N/A with 931 motor with Eaton MP62 'charger @ 15psi. EFI - 565cc inj. Standalone Adaptronic ECU. 951 FMIC. Ally rad. Twin throttle. Recirc valve. Custom manifolds and CAI. 232bhp
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fblade  



Joined: 07 Dec 2020
Posts: 1
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Euro924S2 would an Allen Millyard style BBQing not get it hot enough?
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally feel your pain when it comes to contamination. If you have frequency control I sometimes try playing with that to vibrate the contamination in the molten pool to the surface. In the end though with thick material lower frequencies seem to be the best option. I have a head to weld so your description is causing me dread but you are pulling it off so I can at least give it a go. I also want to try different gas blends to increase penetration. That might help you too. Carbide grind some of the contaminated surface material and hit the clean stuff. Keep it up! This is awesome stuff
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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gegge  



Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 1088
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Duratec solution got me started!

The 2.5 flow 268@0.400 which is twice as much as the 924 head

Twice the hp potiential!

(but with a modern turbo at 2 bar, does it matter..?)
_________________
Carl Fredrik Torkildsen

924 turbo -81 Carrera GT RESTOMOD
924 turbo -80 Dolomite De Luxe
924 -85 DP kit, BBS RS, M030 and tuned engine
924s -86 Black on black turbo with Fuchs
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gegge wrote:
That Duratec solution got me started!

The 2.5 flow 268@0.400 which is twice as much as the 924 head

Twice the hp potiential!

(but with a modern turbo at 2 bar, does it matter..?)


So what your saying is 2x Joakim's 445 (ok thats cheating by using him but...) 890 HP

I'm just kidding !
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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Fifty50Plus  



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1138
Location: Washington DC area

PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the late '80s several of the 2 liter turbocharged four banger race cars were getting between 700 and 900 HP. Zakspeed Ford and BMW for example. It's not unheard of but there was a lot of work on the stock blocks and heads. The F-1 engines were getting even more HP.
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1979 924 NA race car
1982 924 NA race car - Sold
1982 924 Turbo almost a PoS
1981 924 Turbo a real PoS, new engine
1982 924 Turbo nice body, blown engine
1972 911 E race car - going to Vintage
Various 944s to become IT-S race car
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 986
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fifty50Plus wrote:
Back in the late '80s several of the 2 liter turbocharged four banger race cars were getting between 700 and 900 HP. Zakspeed Ford and BMW for example. It's not unheard of but there was a lot of work on the stock blocks and heads. The F-1 engines were getting even more HP.


The limit I read for the GTR's was in the 600's which is insane for that time period but then there was the BMW F1 Turbo which brought it to another level
_________________
1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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