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Lildudes 931EFR Goes to the Dyno
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Lildudes 931EFR Goes to the Dyno Reply with quote

So this was actually in Oct 2019, but I figured I would post it anyways...

This is post-upgrades from:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=43003&sid=d98818aaba2e6fadda76663b20db940e

With the addition of running EFI via VEMS ECU.
Pull done at 11psi and 22deg of ignition at Quantum Performance in WI.

Enjoy. (click image for video)
Pull #4:




Note, EFI write up coming soon. Actually 2 of them. One for this setup with VEMS, and a second once I went to individual coil fully sequential ignition, ID1050 injectors with a haltech ELITE 1500 ECU. Stay tuned.

Bonus: Just for fun, we brought what my dad replaced the 931 with when I bought it off him too. I only wish my phone's mic could have truly captured it. (click image for video)
https://imgur.com/j537GEG


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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong?
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Fifty50Plus  



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can turbo engines be run with more advance like the NAs? Vaughan and I run 41 degrees in our NA race cars. I mistakenly cut mine back to 34 degrees at my last race and acceleration was decidedly slower (lost some torque).
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrera RSR wrote:
Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong?


Wheel HP
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fifty50Plus wrote:
Can turbo engines be run with more advance like the NAs? Vaughan and I run 41 degrees in our NA race cars. I mistakenly cut mine back to 34 degrees at my last race and acceleration was decidedly slower (lost some torque).


Probably. I know Raceboy has a few of his ignition charts posted here and I think hes in the upper 20's with more boost than I was running. I was just keeping it on the safe side. Planning on having it dyno tuned in spring so we'll find out then what its limit is. I'd hazard a guess that I can run 15-18psi and 25deg.
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lildude4life wrote:
Carrera RSR wrote:
Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong?


Wheel HP


Thanks. So circa 210bhp at crank. It’s a great result but I would hope you can find more during a tuning session with your efi and ecu. I bet it feels great on the road even now

24deg is probably the most advance you will get before knock over 1.0bar given your 8.5:1CR.

Keep the updates coming
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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924RACR  



Joined: 29 Jul 2001
Posts: 8353
Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice! That torque curve looks lovely.

Hoping to be at a similar point with mine (my 931), as I'm running the same boost on a Microsquirt, though I haven't dynoed it - actually going to re-ring it in the spring, try to get it to 100%, then keep going with the boost increases.

Regarding ignition timing - I'm running 35 degrees at zero boost, ramping down to 25 degrees around current boost peak of 11psi, and down further as it continues. But down low in the vacuum range, I cranked it way up like we did with the NA racecars; made MASSIVE leaps in low end torque/driveability over stock. The advantages of modern engine controls. Running it up between about 25-38 degrees on the vacuum side of the map (depending on RPM of course - closer to 20 degrees at 1000rpm/off idle).

Tuning notes on that end - running a stock 951 IC, 93 R+M/2 octane, and stock US compression/pistons. No signs of any knock yet.

Keep up the good work!
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Cdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2023
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see some progress!

Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.

Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !

I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C�dric wrote:
Nice to see some progress!

Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.

Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !

I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it


I used Raceboy's as a guideline and then lowered everything by ~10-20%.

I don't recall the exact detonation system my tuner has, but he described it as two fold. One just for hearing det, but secondly, he can have the system create a fake det event to make sure his system works. He can then use that fake det event to tune the knock sensor on the car as well. Then you are not causing real det just to verify everything works.

Good to hear on the EFR liking higher boost. Original plan was 13psi, but based on feedback and what my tuner thinks the engine can handle, ya 15-18psi should be doable. The new haltech ECU's built in boost controller is super slick. Might end up with a scramble switch on center counsel as well. Set the car to 15 for normal driving, flip the switch and get 18 for 30 seconds.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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Location: MI

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rods, pistons, cometic, arps, cam and buckets, custom header to a BW, great IC.. A haltec efi stand-alone setup?

Dude.. You should push that to more like 300-350 at the wheel..
Looks great so far but come on, don’t be scared.. That’s a 450hp turbo..
That thing is just idling at 11psi..
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Cdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 2023
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lildude4life wrote:
C�dric wrote:
Nice to see some progress!

Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.

Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !

I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it


I used Raceboy's as a guideline and then lowered everything by ~10-20%.

I don't recall the exact detonation system my tuner has, but he described it as two fold. One just for hearing det, but secondly, he can have the system create a fake det event to make sure his system works. He can then use that fake det event to tune the knock sensor on the car as well. Then you are not causing real det just to verify everything works.

Good to hear on the EFR liking higher boost. Original plan was 13psi, but based on feedback and what my tuner thinks the engine can handle, ya 15-18psi should be doable. The new haltech ECU's built in boost controller is super slick. Might end up with a scramble switch on center counsel as well. Set the car to 15 for normal driving, flip the switch and get 18 for 30 seconds.


Ive only seen the raceboy tune for the 951 VEMS, and its super conservative, good for taking you to the dyno and drive around, but not for performance.

Sounds like your tuner have a serious plan to handle knock detection, sound good. If you want to push it really hard you should start measuring EGT, because its bewteen EGT and knock that you will have to tune in between. Late timing is not aslways "safe" beacuse it can roast the hot parts if you have no clue about the temperatures. Especially since you have such a nice engine, just sending it isnt a smart solution.

In my engine simulations i reached about 205hp at stock euro boost(ROW S2+IC and 951S compressor) , and about 300hp at 1,4 bar, its probably a good place to be. But exhaust gas temps/detonation will stop you. Even though the EFR likes high boost pressures.

The turbo is big, but not that big, you wont get 450 out of that engine safely, that i can guarantee you Ive have talked alot with joakim and seen alot of dyno data from his engine over the years.


You can see his latest dyno data here on 98 octane and E85, remember that he have a pretty wild porting job, ITBs, EFR7670 etc. Its more or less locked in at 416hp on 98 pump gas, closing in at 900deg celicius EGT, though its loaded statically, so pretty hard on the engine. EGT could maybe be pushed a bit more, but its a qeustion of long term reliability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs&feature=youtu.be
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neh..
Don’t be scared.. Monitor conditions and work toward 30psi...
Push the envelope.. We need innovation..
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I can get 240rwhp on CIS and 1.05bar then I hope lildude has a lot more to come on efi/vems. Good luck
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252
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lildude4life  



Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 22
Location: Milwaukee WI

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C�dric wrote:

Ive only seen the raceboy tune for the 951 VEMS, and its super conservative, good for taking you to the dyno and drive around, but not for performance.

Sounds like your tuner have a serious plan to handle knock detection, sound good. If you want to push it really hard you should start measuring EGT, because its bewteen EGT and knock that you will have to tune in between. Late timing is not aslways "safe" beacuse it can roast the hot parts if you have no clue about the temperatures. Especially since you have such a nice engine, just sending it isnt a smart solution.

In my engine simulations i reached about 205hp at stock euro boost(ROW S2+IC and 951S compressor) , and about 300hp at 1,4 bar, its probably a good place to be. But exhaust gas temps/detonation will stop you. Even though the EFR likes high boost pressures.

The turbo is big, but not that big, you wont get 450 out of that engine safely, that i can guarantee you Ive have talked alot with joakim and seen alot of dyno data from his engine over the years.


You can see his latest dyno data here on 98 octane and E85, remember that he have a pretty wild porting job, ITBs, EFR7670 etc. Its more or less locked in at 416hp on 98 pump gas, closing in at 900deg celicius EGT, though its loaded statically, so pretty hard on the engine. EGT could maybe be pushed a bit more, but its a question of long term reliability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs&feature=youtu.be


The guys up at Quantum Performance seem to know their stuff. They bet me that they will be able to tune in a bosch doughnut knock sensor even on the nosily solid lifter cam using using there system and Haltech's nifty knock detection setup.

I never really had a HP target in mind during this build. First and foremost I just wanted to rebuild an engine and have it work! Second I wanted it to be faster then stock (relative), and be fun. I had a soft target of having performance similar to a 937 which I'm pretty much at now. Even at 180whp its plenty of fun so pushing the envelope just to see what it can do is just going to burn more holes in my checkbook as things break. If I can get 225-250hp at the wheels with a nice safety factor built in before detonation and other issues come up I'll be super happy. And if I can't even get there and its 200hp even, so be it.

Fasteddie313 wrote:
Neh..
Don’t be scared.. Monitor conditions and work toward 30psi...
Push the envelope.. We need innovation..


I like your enthusiasm! But there is no way I can run 30psi with my setup. I'm probably 8.5-9CR and while the 6258EFR can pump out 30psi, I have the smallest .64A/r housing. I wanted response, not ultimate power.


Carrera RSR wrote:
If I can get 240rwhp on CIS and 1.05bar then I hope lildude has a lot more to come on efi/vems. Good luck


I think 240rwhp is in the cards. 4psi more of boost, maybe a deg or two of ignition and slightly less rich (I had a boost leak during the run) and I should be right in that range. But I'm not running VEMS anymore.



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Cdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a very good spot for a bosch donut under the intake manifold, i have my knock se sensor mounted there, it is juste between cyl 2 and 3 on the engine block.

Power wise it doesn't matter if its efi, if its reaches knock or egt maximum there's not much you can do except for increasing the flow (or a more efficient turbo which lowers knock sensitivity, but i think you are sorted there) . A cam and ideally a ported head goes a long way. Im not sure how good fuel you have, but you will be aware next time of course just running around around town or an occasional run down the strip enables to put it at a way more agressive EGt that if you want to use it on a race track.

Anyway, as you say, it's already quick. And over 200whp in these cars feels very quick on twisty roads. And it's nice to have solid reliability, even if the engine is capable of much more if you want. Do you have e85 where you live?
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