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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 60 Location: Milwaukee WI
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am Post subject: Lildudes 931EFR Goes to the Dyno |
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So this was actually in Oct 2019, but I figured I would post it anyways...
This is post-upgrades from:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=43003&sid=d98818aaba2e6fadda76663b20db940e
With the addition of running EFI via VEMS ECU.
Pull done at 11psi and 22deg of ignition at Quantum Performance in WI.
Enjoy. (click image for video)
Pull #4:
Note, EFI write up coming soon. Actually 2 of them. One for this setup with VEMS, and a second once I went to individual coil fully sequential ignition, ID1050 injectors with a haltech ELITE 1500 ECU. Stay tuned.
Bonus: Just for fun, we brought what my dad replaced the 931 with when I bought it off him too. I only wish my phone's mic could have truly captured it. (click image for video)
https://imgur.com/j537GEG
_________________ "931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong? _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
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Fifty50Plus
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 Posts: 1353 Location: Washington DC area
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Can turbo engines be run with more advance like the NAs? Vaughan and I run 41 degrees in our NA race cars. I mistakenly cut mine back to 34 degrees at my last race and acceleration was decidedly slower (lost some torque). _________________ 1979 924 NA race car
1982 924 NA race car - Sold
1982 924 Turbo almost a PoS
1981 924 Turbo a real PoS, new engine
1982 924 Turbo nice body, blown engine
1972 911 E race car - going to Vintage
Various 944s to become IT-S race car |
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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 60 Location: Milwaukee WI
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Carrera RSR wrote: | Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong? |
Wheel HP _________________ "931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 60 Location: Milwaukee WI
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Fifty50Plus wrote: | Can turbo engines be run with more advance like the NAs? Vaughan and I run 41 degrees in our NA race cars. I mistakenly cut mine back to 34 degrees at my last race and acceleration was decidedly slower (lost some torque). |
Probably. I know Raceboy has a few of his ignition charts posted here and I think hes in the upper 20's with more boost than I was running. I was just keeping it on the safe side. Planning on having it dyno tuned in spring so we'll find out then what its limit is. I'd hazard a guess that I can run 15-18psi and 25deg. _________________ "931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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lildude4life wrote: | Carrera RSR wrote: | Is that 181bhp corrected at the crank? Sorry if I’m reading that wrong? |
Wheel HP |
Thanks. So circa 210bhp at crank. It’s a great result but I would hope you can find more during a tuning session with your efi and ecu. I bet it feels great on the road even now
24deg is probably the most advance you will get before knock over 1.0bar given your 8.5:1CR.
Keep the updates coming _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
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924RACR
Joined: 29 Jul 2001 Posts: 8794 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice! That torque curve looks lovely.
Hoping to be at a similar point with mine (my 931), as I'm running the same boost on a Microsquirt, though I haven't dynoed it - actually going to re-ring it in the spring, try to get it to 100%, then keep going with the boost increases.
Regarding ignition timing - I'm running 35 degrees at zero boost, ramping down to 25 degrees around current boost peak of 11psi, and down further as it continues. But down low in the vacuum range, I cranked it way up like we did with the NA racecars; made MASSIVE leaps in low end torque/driveability over stock. The advantages of modern engine controls. Running it up between about 25-38 degrees on the vacuum side of the map (depending on RPM of course - closer to 20 degrees at 1000rpm/off idle).
Tuning notes on that end - running a stock 951 IC, 93 R+M/2 octane, and stock US compression/pistons. No signs of any knock yet.
Keep up the good work! _________________ Vaughan Scott
Webmeister
'79 924 #77 SCCA H Prod racecar
'82 931 Plat. Silver
#25 Hidari Firefly P2 sports prototype |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2600 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Nice to see some progress!
Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.
Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !
I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it _________________ 1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 60 Location: Milwaukee WI
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:33 am Post subject: |
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C�dric wrote: | Nice to see some progress!
Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.
Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !
I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it |
I used Raceboy's as a guideline and then lowered everything by ~10-20%.
I don't recall the exact detonation system my tuner has, but he described it as two fold. One just for hearing det, but secondly, he can have the system create a fake det event to make sure his system works. He can then use that fake det event to tune the knock sensor on the car as well. Then you are not causing real det just to verify everything works.
Good to hear on the EFR liking higher boost. Original plan was 13psi, but based on feedback and what my tuner thinks the engine can handle, ya 15-18psi should be doable. The new haltech ECU's built in boost controller is super slick. Might end up with a scramble switch on center counsel as well. Set the car to 15 for normal driving, flip the switch and get 18 for 30 seconds. _________________ "931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Rods, pistons, cometic, arps, cam and buckets, custom header to a BW, great IC.. A haltec efi stand-alone setup?
Dude.. You should push that to more like 300-350 at the wheel..
Looks great so far but come on, don’t be scared.. That’s a 450hp turbo..
That thing is just idling at 11psi.. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2600 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:47 am Post subject: |
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lildude4life wrote: | C�dric wrote: | Nice to see some progress!
Be careful when you compare the igintion table numbers between different engines and managment systems, they are seldom directly comparable, see other people numbers more like a rough guideline. Your tuner hopefully have some kind of knock ears or similar and should be able to get that ignition table sorted.
Without any references on that dyno its kind of hard to say anything about the absolute numbers, but the curve looks promising. That EFR is still just crawling att the bottom of the compressor map, when it start getting into its sweet spot at 18psi it will sing Im looking forward to the future dyno testing !
I plan to go to the dyno aswell this spring, ill post the data when i have it |
I used Raceboy's as a guideline and then lowered everything by ~10-20%.
I don't recall the exact detonation system my tuner has, but he described it as two fold. One just for hearing det, but secondly, he can have the system create a fake det event to make sure his system works. He can then use that fake det event to tune the knock sensor on the car as well. Then you are not causing real det just to verify everything works.
Good to hear on the EFR liking higher boost. Original plan was 13psi, but based on feedback and what my tuner thinks the engine can handle, ya 15-18psi should be doable. The new haltech ECU's built in boost controller is super slick. Might end up with a scramble switch on center counsel as well. Set the car to 15 for normal driving, flip the switch and get 18 for 30 seconds. |
Ive only seen the raceboy tune for the 951 VEMS, and its super conservative, good for taking you to the dyno and drive around, but not for performance.
Sounds like your tuner have a serious plan to handle knock detection, sound good. If you want to push it really hard you should start measuring EGT, because its bewteen EGT and knock that you will have to tune in between. Late timing is not aslways "safe" beacuse it can roast the hot parts if you have no clue about the temperatures. Especially since you have such a nice engine, just sending it isnt a smart solution.
In my engine simulations i reached about 205hp at stock euro boost(ROW S2+IC and 951S compressor) , and about 300hp at 1,4 bar, its probably a good place to be. But exhaust gas temps/detonation will stop you. Even though the EFR likes high boost pressures.
The turbo is big, but not that big, you wont get 450 out of that engine safely, that i can guarantee you Ive have talked alot with joakim and seen alot of dyno data from his engine over the years.
You can see his latest dyno data here on 98 octane and E85, remember that he have a pretty wild porting job, ITBs, EFR7670 etc. Its more or less locked in at 416hp on 98 pump gas, closing in at 900deg celicius EGT, though its loaded statically, so pretty hard on the engine. EGT could maybe be pushed a bit more, but its a qeustion of long term reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs&feature=youtu.be _________________ 1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Neh..
Don’t be scared.. Monitor conditions and work toward 30psi...
Push the envelope.. We need innovation.. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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If I can get 240rwhp on CIS and 1.05bar then I hope lildude has a lot more to come on efi/vems. Good luck _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
Now www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=34690
Then www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31252 |
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lildude4life
Joined: 27 Apr 2015 Posts: 60 Location: Milwaukee WI
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:23 am Post subject: |
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C�dric wrote: |
Ive only seen the raceboy tune for the 951 VEMS, and its super conservative, good for taking you to the dyno and drive around, but not for performance.
Sounds like your tuner have a serious plan to handle knock detection, sound good. If you want to push it really hard you should start measuring EGT, because its bewteen EGT and knock that you will have to tune in between. Late timing is not aslways "safe" beacuse it can roast the hot parts if you have no clue about the temperatures. Especially since you have such a nice engine, just sending it isnt a smart solution.
In my engine simulations i reached about 205hp at stock euro boost(ROW S2+IC and 951S compressor) , and about 300hp at 1,4 bar, its probably a good place to be. But exhaust gas temps/detonation will stop you. Even though the EFR likes high boost pressures.
The turbo is big, but not that big, you wont get 450 out of that engine safely, that i can guarantee you Ive have talked alot with joakim and seen alot of dyno data from his engine over the years.
You can see his latest dyno data here on 98 octane and E85, remember that he have a pretty wild porting job, ITBs, EFR7670 etc. Its more or less locked in at 416hp on 98 pump gas, closing in at 900deg celicius EGT, though its loaded statically, so pretty hard on the engine. EGT could maybe be pushed a bit more, but its a question of long term reliability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maae0lF1mXs&feature=youtu.be |
The guys up at Quantum Performance seem to know their stuff. They bet me that they will be able to tune in a bosch doughnut knock sensor even on the nosily solid lifter cam using using there system and Haltech's nifty knock detection setup.
I never really had a HP target in mind during this build. First and foremost I just wanted to rebuild an engine and have it work! Second I wanted it to be faster then stock (relative), and be fun. I had a soft target of having performance similar to a 937 which I'm pretty much at now. Even at 180whp its plenty of fun so pushing the envelope just to see what it can do is just going to burn more holes in my checkbook as things break. If I can get 225-250hp at the wheels with a nice safety factor built in before detonation and other issues come up I'll be super happy. And if I can't even get there and its 200hp even, so be it.
Fasteddie313 wrote: | Neh..
Don’t be scared.. Monitor conditions and work toward 30psi...
Push the envelope.. We need innovation.. |
I like your enthusiasm! But there is no way I can run 30psi with my setup. I'm probably 8.5-9CR and while the 6258EFR can pump out 30psi, I have the smallest .64A/r housing. I wanted response, not ultimate power.
Carrera RSR wrote: | If I can get 240rwhp on CIS and 1.05bar then I hope lildude has a lot more to come on efi/vems. Good luck |
I think 240rwhp is in the cards. 4psi more of boost, maybe a deg or two of ignition and slightly less rich (I had a boost leak during the run) and I should be right in that range. But I'm not running VEMS anymore.
_________________ "931 EFR" 81 931 S2 w/ EFR 6258 turbo, EFI, Haltech Elite ECU, 240whp |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2600 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:16 am Post subject: |
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There's a very good spot for a bosch donut under the intake manifold, i have my knock se sensor mounted there, it is juste between cyl 2 and 3 on the engine block.
Power wise it doesn't matter if its efi, if its reaches knock or egt maximum there's not much you can do except for increasing the flow (or a more efficient turbo which lowers knock sensitivity, but i think you are sorted there) . A cam and ideally a ported head goes a long way. Im not sure how good fuel you have, but you will be aware next time of course just running around around town or an occasional run down the strip enables to put it at a way more agressive EGt that if you want to use it on a race track.
Anyway, as you say, it's already quick. And over 200whp in these cars feels very quick on twisty roads. And it's nice to have solid reliability, even if the engine is capable of much more if you want. Do you have e85 where you live? _________________ 1980 924 Turbo
www.instagram.com/garagecedric/ |
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