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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:29 am Post subject: 6.10 vs 4.10 Turbine Housings |
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Just figured I'd show the difference for our tech section. Came out really obvious painted white and at these angles. Obviously 6.10 on LEFT and 4.10 to the RIGHT
_________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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I’ll take the one on the left please .... _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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When you handle them they don't seem so different but at these angles its soooo obvious _________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2614 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Nice view, should be 4 sq cm vs 6 sq cm area at the inlet throat according to the TB there should be some different versions around with some durability tweaks aswell. Not sure what they did though. _________________ 1980 924 Turbo
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Fasteddie313
Joined: 29 Sep 2013 Posts: 2596 Location: MI
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the pictures. _________________ 80 Turbo - Slightly Modified |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Cédric wrote: | Nice view, should be 4 sq cm vs 6 sq cm area at the inlet throat according to the TB there should be some different versions around with some durability tweaks aswell. Not sure what they did though. |
Only difference I am aware of is adding in a step to later manifolds and turbine housing intake to install a fire ring/collar to in theory help protect the gasket from heat and leaks. I haven't run this fire ring for 4 yrs and gasket stayed intact. _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Its interesting since they share basically the same inlet but the 4.10 chokes hard once it starts the scroll. No wonder it has nothing to give at higher boost. This is the 6.10 below. I need to redo a few things but its too cool not share. Also picked up another '82 931 but that's another story
Anyway, you guys can probably figure out where I am going with this. Working on the CAD model already
_________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Not sure it chokes but should accelerate the hot gasses and gives a faster spool, certainly on lower rpm + lower boost. For sure on higher boost cars the 6.10 would have longer legs I guess. _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Carrera RSR wrote: | Not sure it chokes but should accelerate the hot gasses and gives a faster spool, certainly on lower rpm + lower boost. For sure on higher boost cars the 6.10 would have longer legs I guess. |
Chokes may not be the right word for it but it gets much smaller when compared to the 6.10. _________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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morghen
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 8884 Location: Romania
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:27 am Post subject: |
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cool stuff, thanks for sharing _________________ https://www.the924.com |
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Cedric
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 2614 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Choking is not a bad choice of word, turbine swallowing capacity is a word used with the turbo suppliers. The smaller turbine housing builds higher pressure ratio. And turbine power is created by Pressure Ratio, temperature , and massflow.
Below is how a turbine map looks like, the top of the map is where the turbine chokes, as you can see the efficiency drops significantly aswell, so maxing out a small turbine housing have kind of a double negative impact. The bad efficiency will make turbo need even more pressure ratio (closed waste gate) to drive the compressor, and back pressure will increase even more, increasing detonation risk and creating pumping work for the engine (which reduces power).
The turbine should be matched with the map, but those are very seldom shared, which is annoying. And of course its more complicated with the pulsating flow compared to the compressor.
Really nice scans, send them to china and reproduce them in some high temp alloy/cast steel
_________________ 1980 924 Turbo
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Mike9311
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 1678 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the lesson!
That is the plan but not China. Little too worried about a few things if I send it there _________________ 1980 931 since 1989
1981 Ideola 931 Club Sport
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA ohne 650 mit 471
1982 931 Red Resurrection - 951 IC
1982 931 parts car / resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car |
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Carrera RSR
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 Posts: 2309 Location: Somerset, UK
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Yep, we need a new source of #6 turbine housings due to cracking. _________________ 1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Kenodog
Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 2651 Location: Vancouver,B.C.
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:40 am Post subject: |
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I have a NOS 6.10 housing if someone wants to have it recast. I was going to do that with exhaust manifolds years ago, have them recast in inconel, but I didn't think people here would be down for the $500 ea price tag when you can simply weld up the cracks on your old one.
IIRC the mold was going to be $5,000 ($Cdn) and then it was $2 lb for the inconel. . .
Me _________________ 1979 Euro 931, Olive
1981 931, Sabine
1991 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4, Ricky
1996 Ford E-350 ex-FedEx Van
2014 Mazda CX-5 (Kinderwagon)
2019 KTM 790 Adventure
2024 KLX300
2024 KLX140 |
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jacobroufa
Joined: 18 Nov 2016 Posts: 531 Location: Belvidere, IL
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:17 am Post subject: |
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I don't know a lot about this stuff, but an engineer friend informed me that ProtoLabs will 3d print in 718. If you've got it scanned already would not that be a less expensive option? _________________ 1980 Porsche 931
1981 Porsche 924 Weissach |
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