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6.10 vs 4.10 Turbine Housings
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 731
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: 6.10 vs 4.10 Turbine Housings Reply with quote

Just figured I'd show the difference for our tech section. Came out really obvious painted white and at these angles. Obviously 6.10 on LEFT and 4.10 to the RIGHT




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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll take the one on the left please ....
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



When you handle them they don't seem so different but at these angles its soooo obvious
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - NEW!
1982 931 parts car or resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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Cédric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1870
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice view, should be 4 sq cm vs 6 sq cm area at the inlet throat according to the TB there should be some different versions around with some durability tweaks aswell. Not sure what they did though.
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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Location: MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures.
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cédric wrote:
Nice view, should be 4 sq cm vs 6 sq cm area at the inlet throat according to the TB there should be some different versions around with some durability tweaks aswell. Not sure what they did though.


Only difference I am aware of is adding in a step to later manifolds and turbine housing intake to install a fire ring/collar to in theory help protect the gasket from heat and leaks. I haven't run this fire ring for 4 yrs and gasket stayed intact.
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its interesting since they share basically the same inlet but the 4.10 chokes hard once it starts the scroll. No wonder it has nothing to give at higher boost. This is the 6.10 below. I need to redo a few things but its too cool not share. Also picked up another '82 931 but that's another story

Anyway, you guys can probably figure out where I am going with this. Working on the CAD model already


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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - NEW!
1982 931 parts car or resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure it chokes but should accelerate the hot gasses and gives a faster spool, certainly on lower rpm + lower boost. For sure on higher boost cars the 6.10 would have longer legs I guess.
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrera RSR wrote:
Not sure it chokes but should accelerate the hot gasses and gives a faster spool, certainly on lower rpm + lower boost. For sure on higher boost cars the 6.10 would have longer legs I guess.


Chokes may not be the right word for it but it gets much smaller when compared to the 6.10.
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - NEW!
1982 931 parts car or resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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Location: Romania

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool stuff, thanks for sharing
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Cédric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1870
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choking is not a bad choice of word, turbine swallowing capacity is a word used with the turbo suppliers. The smaller turbine housing builds higher pressure ratio. And turbine power is created by Pressure Ratio, temperature , and massflow.

Below is how a turbine map looks like, the top of the map is where the turbine chokes, as you can see the efficiency drops significantly aswell, so maxing out a small turbine housing have kind of a double negative impact. The bad efficiency will make turbo need even more pressure ratio (closed waste gate) to drive the compressor, and back pressure will increase even more, increasing detonation risk and creating pumping work for the engine (which reduces power).

The turbine should be matched with the map, but those are very seldom shared, which is annoying. And of course its more complicated with the pulsating flow compared to the compressor.

Really nice scans, send them to china and reproduce them in some high temp alloy/cast steel



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Mike9311  



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 731
Location: Chicago-ish

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the lesson!

That is the plan but not China. Little too worried about a few things if I send it there
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1980 931 ...off with the cobwebs
1982 931 Entwicklungsfahrzeug
1979 924 NA M471/M481 ohne M650 Herausnehmbares Dach
1982 931 Red Resurrection - NEW!
1982 931 parts car or resurrection?
1980 924 NA (R&D lightweight)
1982 931 wana-be GTR race car
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1778
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, we need a new source of #6 turbine housings due to cracking.
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1980 931 - forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 3257 6.10 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, H&S exhaust, GAZ Gold, Fuch'ed, Quaife
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Kenodog  



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2575
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a NOS 6.10 housing if someone wants to have it recast. I was going to do that with exhaust manifolds years ago, have them recast in inconel, but I didn't think people here would be down for the $500 ea price tag when you can simply weld up the cracks on your old one.

IIRC the mold was going to be $5,000 ($Cdn) and then it was $2 lb for the inconel. . .



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jacobroufa  



Joined: 18 Nov 2016
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Location: Rockford, IL

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know a lot about this stuff, but an engineer friend informed me that ProtoLabs will 3d print in 718. If you've got it scanned already would not that be a less expensive option?
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