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Any thoughts on TurboSmart manual boost controllers?

 
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bureau13  



Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 182
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:46 am    Post subject: Any thoughts on TurboSmart manual boost controllers? Reply with quote

A search showed minimal discussion of these. Specifically, I like the idea of their "dual stage" controller, which is mounted in the engine bay and has two adjustable boost levels, with a cabin-mounted toggle switch to go between them.

I know a lot of talk has been about connecting manual boost controllers to the top port on the wastegate, and since I'm going to have to remove and/or replace mine, that seemed a good time to do it, but all of the TurboSmart MBC instructions say to use the lower port, i.e. the existing wastegate control line. It seems the TurboSmart is of the "ball-and-spring" variety, and the top port connection requires either a solenoid controlled by an electronic boost controller or an MBC of the bleed valve variety.

Any thoughts on these controllers, how they should be connected, etc?
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1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)

Past lives (I miss them all):
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1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen)
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1811
Location: MI

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one?
http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Manual-Boost-Controllers/Dual-Stage-Boost-Controller-V2-Black.html

I think you need to hook it up as they recommend.. If it's designed for bottom port operation that is the way you will have to use it..
Call them and ask about it and if it can be used in a top port configuration to achieve more than a 100% increase over spring..

If you want such a fancy and expensive boost controller that is all on you but I think unless you plan to be able to run quite a high boost PSI for your 2nd stage that feature wouldn't be all that useful..

It is a bit overkill if you are just trying to run a slightly higher boost on an otherwise stock engine where you will only be able to turn it up by a couple PSI anyway..

How much boost do you want to run?
Are you planning to implement supporting mods needed to run a meaningful amount of more boost where 2 stages would start to get useful?

It says..
"Stable increases in boost over wastegate spring pressure of 200%+ for internal wastegate and 100% for external wastegates are common practice using our manual boost controllers."

If it is only good for a 100% increase over spring pressure, you have a 6psi spring and will only be able to turn it up to 12psi max with that system..
So what are you going to have? an 8psi setting and a 12psi setting?
Not sure if that's worth it..

I think this is one of the reasons top port boost control is inherently better than bottom port boost control, because you can push it closed..

This is a very good presentation on boost control theory.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvHYmwEpwY


I would probably go with something like this..
https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/LRA-MBC-25.html

Which is almost exactly like what ideola used to sell and recommended for our cars..

And hook it up like this..

https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/LRA-MBC-25.html

This picture looks to be hooked up backwards but that is because lindsay wastegates are backwards/strange/weird..

Note they say..
"The wastegate in this picture is a Lindsey Racing Dual Port Wastegate. If this was a TIAL brand wastegate, the lines at the wastegate would be reversed. Side is now top, and top is now side. This is done because the valve travels in the opposite direction."

The OEM 930/931 WG works the same as a Tial WG so you T off the bottom port and run the regulator to the top port.
Or rather to be technically correct, the Tial WG works the same way as a 930/931 WG, because the 930 WG is the original..

That is what I ran and worked well for me, with my own regulator, as have many others.
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1901
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lindsey one look just like a regular pressure regulator from a pneumatic vendor. Which is a good thing since they often have good specs and are fairly cheap compared to bling stuff. I bought a big fat alu pressure regulator from a pneumatic company and routed it to the top port. Im still at 0.7bar,but will explore higher boost as the season start..hopefully it will work perfectly.
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bureau13  



Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 182
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that's the one. I hadn't actually noticed/thought about that "100% over spring" limitation. That being said, I'm likely to be replacing/rebuilding my wastegate (see other thread) so I can have any spring pressure I want. The plan in my head was to use a 0.5 bar spring and set the low pressure mode to basically that, and then set the high around 12-14. Probably more like 10-12 and then turning that up a little if/when I add a water-meth injection kit or an intercooler, which I'm considering down the line. Summers are pretty hot down here, so I don't really want to run the high boost all the time, but I do like the idea of flipping between two dialed-in levels with a switch.

The other advantage of the ball-and-spring style controller is that spool-up should be quicker, since that design drastically reduces wastegate creep. Now...maybe that concern is overblown. Before my wastegate got stuck open (still a theory, but a good one IMO) boost was quite slow to come up when launching in first. However that may have been due to a wastegate that was already not properly closing. I don't know.

Fasteddie313 wrote:
This one?
http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Manual-Boost-Controllers/Dual-Stage-Boost-Controller-V2-Black.html

I think you need to hook it up as they recommend.. If it's designed for bottom port operation that is the way you will have to use it..
Call them and ask about it and if it can be used in a top port configuration to achieve more than a 100% increase over spring..

If you want such a fancy and expensive boost controller that is all on you but I think unless you plan to be able to run quite a high boost PSI for your 2nd stage that feature wouldn't be all that useful..

It is a bit overkill if you are just trying to run a slightly higher boost on an otherwise stock engine where you will only be able to turn it up by a couple PSI anyway..

How much boost do you want to run?
Are you planning to implement supporting mods needed to run a meaningful amount of more boost where 2 stages would start to get useful?

It says..
"Stable increases in boost over wastegate spring pressure of 200%+ for internal wastegate and 100% for external wastegates are common practice using our manual boost controllers."

If it is only good for a 100% increase over spring pressure, you have a 6psi spring and will only be able to turn it up to 12psi max with that system..
So what are you going to have? an 8psi setting and a 12psi setting?
Not sure if that's worth it..

I think this is one of the reasons top port boost control is inherently better than bottom port boost control, because you can push it closed..

This is a very good presentation on boost control theory.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvHYmwEpwY


I would probably go with something like this..
https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/LRA-MBC-25.html

Which is almost exactly like what ideola used to sell and recommended for our cars..

And hook it up like this..

https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/LRA-MBC-25.html

This picture looks to be hooked up backwards but that is because lindsay wastegates are backwards/strange/weird..

Note they say..
"The wastegate in this picture is a Lindsey Racing Dual Port Wastegate. If this was a TIAL brand wastegate, the lines at the wastegate would be reversed. Side is now top, and top is now side. This is done because the valve travels in the opposite direction."

The OEM 930/931 WG works the same as a Tial WG so you T off the bottom port and run the regulator to the top port.
Or rather to be technically correct, the Tial WG works the same way as a 930/931 WG, because the 930 WG is the original..

That is what I ran and worked well for me, with my own regulator, as have many others.

_________________
-----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)

Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen)
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Carrera RSR  



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 1850
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts and actual experience is the avoid this type of boost controller......specifically this Turbosmart one



Bore is too small for our large volume waste gates. Maybe OK for modern smaller versions, and WILL cause overboost on our cars.
They bleed boost to trick the waste gate in not opening, wasting (a little) boost but do not flow enough air.

The air regulator in the Lindsey image is similar to what I'm using. It feeds air into the top port of our WG's balancing the pressure. Easy to set up and control. What it can't do is keep a solid boost level as its analogue. There will be fluctuation of 0.1-2bar which is not ideal but acceptable. This is where digital controllers can react better to keep a solid boost level and adapt.
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Kenodog  



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2579
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the bling 2-stage controller in my old 931. The guys here are right in saying that it didn't work as advertised right our of the box because it was too restrictive. I ended up removing the spring and ball bearing and drilling it out to it's max limit. Once I did that it worked perfectly and held pressures rock solid. For around town cruising it was set on 10 psi and for fun on cold days or just to embarrass idiots in Hondas I had it set to 15psi on high. It was a blast to use because you can be running on low when your actually driving then flick it to high and feel the extra 5 psi kick in. I actually have one new in the box that will be going on Sabine.

The ball bearing detail inside the T is just to help build boost faster so removing it doesn't really do much else.

Keep in mind my old car was intercooled so using 10 & 15 psi may not be the best for your car, especially in summer....




Lee
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bureau13  



Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 182
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, that's disappointing. The ball bearing "gate" system (if I understand it, it's basically a built-in Lindsey Racing-style "boost enhancer") is one reason I wanted this one. The idea of holding the wastegate closed until the last minute and then slamming it open, vs letting it creep open, is sound. In practice, I'm not sure how important it really is though...
_________________
-----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)

Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen)
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Kenodog  



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 2579
Location: Vancouver,B.C.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be possible to custom make a new gate for it from aluminum but with larger ports to flow properly. I may do this for mine if I get time. It doesn't necessarily 'slam' open though fyi, The pressure will lift the spring slowly it just gets delayed a bit.




Lee
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1981 931, Sabine
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bureau13  



Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 182
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do that make two and take my money!

Kenodog wrote:
It would be possible to custom make a new gate for it from aluminum but with larger ports to flow properly. I may do this for mine if I get time. It doesn't necessarily 'slam' open though fyi, The pressure will lift the spring slowly it just gets delayed a bit.




Lee

_________________
-----------------------------------------
1982 931
1986.5 Silver 928S
2007 Hummer H3 (Daily Driver)

Past lives (I miss them all):
2004 RX-8 (Wrecked)
1993 RX-7 (Sold)
1987 RX-7 Turbo II (Sold)
1985 RX-7 GSL (Stolen)
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11377
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is the same. With the ball bearing and spring installed, it will cause overboost because it is too slow to inflate the diaphragm. With the ball bearing removed, it works fine, but does cause a vacuum leak off-boost.
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