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The Green 931 -my first transaxle ever (resurrection thread)
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peterld  



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 698
Location: Noosa Heads QLD Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I feel your pain Kondzi.
Similar to you I have had issue after issue with the CIS. Stupid things I have done, or were done. Argh!
Interestingly, like yours, my DITC plug has that extra brown wire with red trace soldered to the earth. As you've found there is no mention of it in the Workshop Manual. Now that I've seen yours, I realise it must be factory. All my female pins had obviously been re-soldered sometime in it's early life and I believed this extra wire had been added!
As Morghen rightly says, make sure all pins and corresponding plugs are a good tight fit.
Agree ignition amplifier may be suspect.
Flywheel sensor generally works, or not!
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the "extra" br/rd wire goes to the Inlet Air Temp sensor (GND), and gets back via br/wh (if I'm not wrong) showing a resistance of c.a. 5k Ohm.

It was really an exhausting weekend, and honestly the reward this care will give must be really big to me, to compensate on those all bad words I've told during this weekend to myself

So I started tracking down the wiring harness from DITC plug to everywhere else. Quite a lot of them goes to the Ignition Module mounted on the left (driver side) inner wing/fender.


- gn/wh goes to DITC (this is the triggering slope to ignition module, and then to coil via ignition module)
- bk - is +12V from ignition coil (when you turn ignition on, the power is there)
- br/wh goes to DITC (this is I think a retard signal)
- br is GND
- gn is trigger signal to coil

I've stripped down the plug and replaced all the connectors. These were rusty and covered with oxygenation.. Cut down wires a bit and placed new connectors.

I've connected them directly to the ignition module for ease of access for my scope probes.



Connected the probes to gn/wh (input - "A" signal on scope) and gn wires (output - "B" signal on scope):



You will notice that immediately when there is a signal change (trigger) on A, there is also on B. This somehow concludes that DITC is triggering fine, and ignition module passes the signal correctly.

What I realised at this point is that the Voltage is somewhat low, around 9V. This was odd to me. To make the story short, some time before I plugged my scope into the wiring harness, my Alternator Voltage Regulator went down.



You can see here it's a low quality NO NAME product anyway:



As you can see I've managed to do some measurements, but these are not final, as without proper voltage/amperage in the system these could not be trust.

I've ordered a new Voltage Regulator, and Ignition Module with a solid brand (HUCO made in Germany) and will work on the car next weekend.

In the meantime when I was having a trip back home I was thinking a lot, and realised I should have a spare alternator somewhere in my garage and the voltage regulator may just fit from it. So I called my father to check it (it was there) and replace the regulator.

A short check indicates no issues with starting when warm, but when accelerating between 1000RPM and c.a. 2000RPM there is some misfires (when warm). Idle is rather stable, but sometimes a misfire occurs (warm). This is only via phone diagnosis

So there is a light in the tunnel
Hopefully I'll get this engine stable enough to plug in my wideband lambda sensor soon and see what really happens when turning CW and CCW the CO2 screw.
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there we go again...

Cold, runs as beauty - AFR around 13.2, goes to around 14 when warming up at idle, and then started dropping a bit to low 13. Misfires begins :-/

There is no black smoke, so I'm kinda sceptic about Fuel Pressures issue. This might not be it. Just to be double sure about the WUR, I stripped it down to pieces, gave it an ultrasound bath, refaced the fuel cell and so on and reassembled. Re-set the fuel pressures. I'm now at c.a. 3.85 bar for warm. Don't see a difference

I went again through the following topics:
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=36610
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=38571

Just to be sure what I am measuring and if the results I'm getting are correct.
Seems my flywheel sensor is good, at least when cold.

I need to check in the morning that trace as I kinda have feeling that when it gets warmer, something is getting messed up with signals either from DITC or to DITC.

So this is warm'ish measurement at Ignition Module (Signal A - from DITC, Signal B - to IGN Coil).
I get around 7V as signal from DITC and around 12V as signal from IGN Module to IGN Coil.



As you can see here the signals from DITC are not as regular as I would like them to be. This brings me to conclusion that DITC is not firing IGN Module --> IGN Coil correctly (when warm'ish).

When the engine warmed up even more (mid in the engine temp dial), I could not start the engine at all and there was rubbish on the scope.

Hope to get some measurement in the morning during warm-up to see how it changes.

If that brings me to a final conclusion that the culprit is DITC or Flywheel Sensor. I'm going to MegaSquirt this bastard, at least for Ignition, maybe boost control, fan control and who knows what else.

And here's todays video with warm'ish engine:
https://youtu.be/ewMwPiWjjWc

As usual, 20 seconds after I stopped filming, the engine started to misfire much more, dropped RPM to around 400-450 and finally died.

Stay tuned for more
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1559
Location: MI

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the bimetalic strip in the WUR come 100% off of the valve with just +12v to it?

Other than the +12v to the WUR, is also supposed to heat sink to the intake manifold for AFR control with engine temp, I think..

How hot is the intake manifold to your hand when the AFRs start to fall back down? Hot enough to possibly influence the WUR further as it warms up?

I think the heat the WUR gets from the intake manifold is also part of its function..
Maybe try again with the WUR mounted correctly..
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's 100% DITC. Will post more details / pics / videos later.
To make the story short -DITC is not providing all triggering signals to Ignition Module. It misses some, the warmer the engine, the bigger number of missed triggering signals from DITC.
I don't know if it's DITC alone or the flywheel sensor, but honestly I don't care at this moment
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7886
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm quite sure the DITC is fine and your problem is the crank sensor.
Why would some of the triggers work and some not?
I think you're getting erratic engine speed readings, just replace the sensor and be done with it.
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was traveling recently to much and had no time to progress. Now sitting in an airport in Istanbul/Turkey and uploading videos from my phone

Here is a video that tells you it's a DITC related issue:
https://youtu.be/1ed2IX3Bx2w

I get misfires (no repeatable spikes in signal when warm) from DITC when warm. I assume this is most probably due to faulty flywheel sensor as morghen is claiming. Hope to get that completely clear in a week time.

Engine when cold works like a charm. Fuel pressure rises, it gets a bit leaner when engine warms and fuel pressure rises.

Then I start getting misfires and together with them my AFR jumps to lean. Misfire causes unburned oxygen traveling to exhaust and O2 sensor reporting lean because of that.

And as entertainment 2 hours of works in less than 30 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs4Bo4_9DCo
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally found a day to do some works on my 931.
The good news is my morale is good back again At least for the moment
I managed to get my car starting every time with barely touching ignition key. No matter if it's warm or cold!

So what I did?
1. I grabbed an EDIS4 module, VR sensor, 36-1 trigger wheel, distance plate for water pump pulley, some washers...
2. With help of soldering iron, few feet of cables and some connectors I wired a Ford Fiesta MK7 Ignition coil to EDIS4 and fed the VR sensor to it as well.

Forgive me all the cable mess, but it's just to make it work quickly. It looks like this:



I grabbed the +12V and GND from the original Ignition Module, and left the signal cables form DITC disconnected.
I left DITC in place, as EDIS works independently anyway - that way I could at least watch the RPM, as DITC is providing the tach signal to the RPM dial.

Engine bay looks like that:


You will notice than other than my yellow "temporary" cabling nothing looks suspicious. I dare say this conversion in the end will not be even spotted by regular Porsche 924 user.
I removed my rotor and cap to gain some space. I'm thinking about providing similar mount for the coil pack as Ideola has available for purchase. No sense for importing it from US to EU due to customs and shipment.

The 36-1 Trigger Wheel and VR sensor when installed properly also does not take to much space in the engine bay. I had to though bend a bit the teeth as it was hacking a bit timing belt. I've noticed the timing belt is positioned to the front of timing wheel and crankshaft pulley. I wonder if it's the matter of the tensioner that is positioned more to the front of the engine? There is nothing else that would position the timing belt.



I've welded an adjustable mount for VR sensor from some washers and nuts. Stainless steel



And for the end some footage from the garage with engine starts and stops
https://youtu.be/pQPHNjlLlts
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing worth commenting - DITC is plugged in and working in my current setup, well kind of working. It's not triggering the ignition obviously, but in theory it should at least provide signal to the tach. And when cold it is! When engine temp gets warmer the RPM is c.a. 200 in the tach-o-meter, and as of my ear it's definitely more close to 1000 RPM.

I could wire the EDIS green cable (tach signal) to the tach-o-meter, and that's probably what I'll do in next steps.

The good thing is WUR is working, Auxilary Air Valve is working, Fuel Distributor is working. Will need to sort out fuel pressures again when I get my ignition properly timed. But in general when engine is cold it jumps to higher RPM and then gradually reduces RPM to a stable idle. There is no misfires, no suspicious shaking of the engine.

But not to make my day fully rewarding, I sometimes hear some metallic sound - like something loose was touching the engine and when resonating sounds like TRRRRR for a second or so and then silence for some time.

Did not figure out what it might be, as I cannot correlate it with state of the engine (warm, hot, idle, higher RPM - but more when idle, or starting/stopping engine).

Any comments welcome!
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1559
Location: MI

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats man.
I hope to be seeing you taking it out for some runs soon..

See what you have for space between your turbo oil drain and crossmember.. I had that make some hard to find noise once..
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much progress over the last weekend but at least some
I've cleaned up the cables going from EDIS to coil pack a bit. Yeah, still of bunch of cables there, but ut least the loom got black fabric insulation and disappeared in the bay


I removed the factory coil as it's no longer needed.


Coil pack is mounted on a teflon mount. I used also two pieces of aluminum and connected it with the teflon mount with screws - that way I could find a best position for the coil pack.
#1 by rotating it in the distributor socket
#2 by mowing it in and out using this kind of rail I created





When I did the clean-up with cabling and coil pack mount I gave it a try to start the engine. To my (no) surprise there was some misfiring again!
To make the story short one of the spark plugs failed completely, one failed half-way...

I'm beginning to think this car is somewhat cursed and found a new name for it "Green Evil"

This name came up to my mind when I was fiddling with the MegaSquirt ECU.


Recently I decided to do an easy mod and provide a bluetooth connection to MS2 instead of regular RS232 cable. I've done that at once on my Ford Capri and with the MS2 for the 931.

When programming the Bluetooth module I needed to give it a name, so when discovered by my laptop it would appear in the search list. And there it is "Green Evil" discovered

The Bluetooth module itself is quite small, and fits in the standard metal box for MS2.



I've created also a small bracket and screwed down the EDIS module in the place of factory Ignition Module:



Looks like stock to me

The next step is to make MegaSquirt manage the ignition table and pass that spark triggering through EDIS to coil pack.

Will keep you posted!
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here a close up to Ford Fiesta Mk7 spark wires

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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 7886
Location: Romania

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool! thanks for sharing.
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through some reading about EDIS and it appeared to me that EDIS4, which I implemented in my 931 is the only one from EDIS family (EDIS6, EDIS8 being the rest) equipped with CTO (Clean Tach Out) output.

If you look at the diagrams provided by MegaSquirt community, you will not find it there most probably. I've added the missing output in the diagram below (PIN 11):



There is also output called IDM (PIN 2) which sometimes is properly indicated - that one is providing tach and diagnostic information to Ford ECU directly.

By mistake I've connected IDM to my 931 Tach and it was working honestly, however I remembered that CTO should be placed between output to coil pack 1 and coil pack 2 (PIN 11).

It appeared the CTO (PIN 11) was blind (sorry if it's not proper term, my tech english is not so good). What I mean by that is that there was no cable going out from PIN 11 of the EDIS4 plug.

I've disassembled the plug to see what I can do about it and was curious if the CTO really is there and would it drive my tach.



I've already swapped the IDM cable (green) from PIN 2 to PIN 11 (CTO).
I had to drill a hole for the PIN 11 (CTO) cable as it was blank in the black plastic.



THe other thing is this black plastic had a "pin" that sealed the red silicon seal just as the cables seal the holes in it when present. I wanted to keep that sealed obviously so I used a piece of stainless rivet to use it as sealing pin for the missing IDN (PIN 2) cable.



When I put it in place it was tight, but not to much.



Conclusion:
- CTO really exists and can drive the tach directly (I used GN/WH cable from DITC to provide the CTO Tach signal from EDIS4 to Tach (GN)
- IDM can drive the tach as well, but as the EDIS documentation states this is designed to provide also diagnostic information to Ford ECU, I decided not to use it.
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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kondzi  



Joined: 02 Jul 2018
Posts: 52
Location: MZ/Poland/EU

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here is the most important note - It's alive!!!
https://youtu.be/GFGJVrc6iQI



I've used Ignition Table Generator that is available for MegaSquirt to calculate the initial ignition table. Compared it a bit with the other ignition tables that were posted in this forum. Retarded it in the "hot" area to 38 deg (it was bit above 40 deg out from the generator).



I've driven the car for a half of mile total I think. Did not rev it above 4000 RPM.
I could feel the turbo was jumping in above 2500 RPM a bit, but gently - there is not much of a turbo hole like in 911 turbo (930 or 965).
The car is quiet and "soft" in handling. I need to change all the fluids (my oil is full of gas because all of this CIS/DITC nightmare).
Hopefully when I bleed the brakes/clutch it will also brake better

I'm still worried about this TRRRR sound I was mentioning before, but I'm beginning to think this might be related to some valve and/or boost/vacuum sensor. When I press gas pedal quickly or depress it quickly it does a single "click". Sometimes it "Resonates" into TRRRR sound.

BTW does the turbo kick in only when under load? I.e. when revving the engine on stand I've not noticed any boost on boost gauge, nor in MegaSquirt Vacuum Dial?
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Konrad

'88 Mustang 5.0 LX Convertible (factory specs)
'84 911 Carrera 3.2 RoW (factory specs)
'81 931 RoW (TBD)
'81 Ford Capri 2.8i (factory specs)
'79 Ford Capri 2.9 (heavily modded)
'74 Ford Capri 1.3 (factory specs)
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