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My 924 Turbo, finally out on the road !
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1732
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sorry that everything is a bit dusty and nasty, i just have so little time when im in the garage so i have to focus on getting things done. Anyway, work is ongoing with the boost piping, the clutch seems to work, had to change some clutch lines, so need to to more serious bleeding, at the moment the pedal is very soft and doesnt go up as it did before.

After rethinking my piping i bought a 180deggre bend instead, would have wanted to continue with 2" piping but had already bought 2,5. But it actually seems to work, even though its close to the sway bar due to it being 944 shape. the boost pipe will go all along the steering rack. Next time will be putting the IC in place and connect it up, after that i will need to work with the finish. So i can start with water and oil lines

Also bought a VDO boost guage which matches the interior better and hopefully have good precision.



From comp to IC, something like this, or maybe ill use a straight alu pipe.


Tight, but roomy compared to the alternative, might need to grind of the corner of my sway bar bracket.


Getto DIY bead rolling, worked ok, but the pipes were a bit thick walled.

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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey I like that! It looks like it turned out pretty well!

I am not too worried about trying to get 10/10 aerodynamics (or fluid dynamics?) out of my intake..
Like I'll prolly never get around to porting that lower charge tube.. Do you have any thoughts on that?
That hose in yours looks plenty big around to soften the cornering resistance anyway..

One day I might redo my intake piping in legit silicone and welded pipes like you are saying..
When I go to do that I think about just selling my whole turbo kit and doing it all over.. Especially if I decide I need a bigger yet turbo some time in the future..

I don't recall what you are doing for supporting mods a far as fuel and HG right now but you are going to have enough turbo and IC like that for rediculousness.. Other than your lower charge tube and possibly TB I think your next choke might come from the stock exhaust manifold and (4.10 or 6.10) turbine housing..

I haven't scene much info about the stock exhaust manifold, if it ever chokes out, but IIRC the GTS still runs the stock exhaust manifold doesn't it?
I think one of those pretty high HP ones does, the mittelmotor one maybe..
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1732
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
Hey I like that! It looks like it turned out pretty well!

I am not too worried about trying to get 10/10 aerodynamics (or fluid dynamics?) out of my intake..
Like I'll prolly never get around to porting that lower charge tube.. Do you have any thoughts on that?
That hose in yours looks plenty big around to soften the cornering resistance anyway..

One day I might redo my intake piping in legit silicone and welded pipes like you are saying..
When I go to do that I think about just selling my whole turbo kit and doing it all over.. Especially if I decide I need a bigger yet turbo some time in the future..

I don't recall what you are doing for supporting mods a far as fuel and HG right now but you are going to have enough turbo and IC like that for rediculousness.. Other than your lower charge tube and possibly TB I think your next choke might come from the stock exhaust manifold and (4.10 or 6.10) turbine housing..

I haven't scene much info about the stock exhaust manifold, if it ever chokes out, but IIRC the GTS still runs the stock exhaust manifold doesn't it?
I think one of those pretty high HP ones does, the mittelmotor one maybe..


I think pressure loss wise its kind of ok, the air is in a big swirl after the compressor, so i think it will be less problematic than having a 180deg before the TB as others have done for example. Many oem high power engines have pretty nasty piping aswell, as long as you have a big compressor it wont be a big issue. But if you are on the limit it will be tougher to have lots of pressure loss for the turbo to overcome and you will more likely overspeed the turbo alot.
'
Like you said the lower charge tube is probably what bugs me the most, since its a very unnecessary area contraction, might port it out or make a bellmouth for it to make things less harsh.

If i had time i would have swapped for a MLS and ARP studs to be safe, but that was out of the question due to time constraints. hopefully my own garage will be up and running the day it blows out. Supporting mods so far has been a bigger alu radiatior and a larger SETRAB oil cooler.

Im not set on the fuel side yet, will see how the AFRs go when i raise the boost, if i get similar problem as carreraRSR and morghen i will have to lean it out in some way, Either by having a boost controller or rpm switching of a solenoid on the WUR line.

Exhaust is already pretty good, straight through silencers and 2,5" without any major bends. i can run bigger in my simulation and check but i think there is little in it. Making a diffuser after the turbine and diffusing it up a to 3" will make you get better turbine efficiency (better spool and power), but for me it isnt worth swapping out a good working OEM.

According to my simulations the 6.10 should be enough for bottoming out the CIS. bigger would most likely hurt response too much.

One thing i will have do decide is wether i will run the boost temp sensor pre or post IC, running it in stock position will add a lot of timing since temps will be considerably lower, in combination with added boost that will make for lots of cylinder pressure to handle by the old head gasket. An alternative is to put it after the compressor, then timing should be fairly close to the non IC case. Morghen have you thought anything about this?


There is so much else i need to get sorted, so i will probably stay away from 1 bar boost for a while. Hence fuelling issues etc will come later.
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1732
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you might be interested ill post a pic from some runs i did a while ago just for fun.

I hope you can see the numbers, at 1.4 bar it produces 296 hp, but at this level i think you might have to look over the turbine size since knock might be a very big issue. Compressor still works reasonably at this level.

I would also look for a different cam and slightly ported head to get this power but at a lower boost to stress the system a bit less.

However i would want to improve my simulationmodel a bit when it comes to head flow, cam data and also some geometries to do simulation at this kind of power levels.




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morghen  



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you do the K27 as well please?
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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
Posts: 1556
Location: MI

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:



Yeah I might be interested.....

Especially in the almost 15HP gain at the same boost just by switching turbos that I believe but don't really understand..

I get the little bit of lag increase going from the 64 to the 70 between 3k to 4k RPM..
I think that shows a little more lag than I have experienced with my 2667 with a #4 by maybe 200RPM..
I can't really tell if it shows full boost coming on around 3500 or just boost starting to come up there but in my experience with the 67 and 4 I got a full 15-16 pounds pegged around 3300-3400 when pulling from lower and anything 3800 and above boost would come up almost immediately at the flick of my right foot..
So in a nutshell your chart looks conservative to me as far as how late the power ramps up, or maybe more similar to a 1st or 2nd gear pull where it simply doesn't have the time to build boost lower..
My 3300-3400 number is more like a 4th-5th gear pull or pulling against my breaks to see how low I could get it to come on..

So anyway thats below the curve, little more lag for the bigger comp and higher AR turbine housing.. Makes sense..

Buy why does it make almost 15 HP more above the curve?
Is it the lowered back pressure because of the #6?

Has it much to do with the compressor? Both compressors are pretty comfortable at 1 bar @5k RPM I'd say so would a compressor change make more power just because it's more efficient? Would it till come down to backpressure because the WG will be more open with the larger compressor?

Would their be a post IC IAT difference that would help it make more power?
I'm not feeling their would be a larg IAT difference after a FMIC.. I think these FMICs will handle twice what we are going to put through them, especially yours..

So your ref 2664 and #6 dyno data lines..
Just changed the hotside from a 4 to 6 and got basically no change at stock boost?
Those 2 are real world dyno data right? And all the other higher ones are extrapolations off those from your modeling programs?

What is causing the +15 HP changing turbos do you think?
+15HP is nothing to sneeze at especially at the same boost level.. That's like wow..
I feel it must be backpressure because boost on the backside of the intake valves is boost on the backside of the intake valves given the same IAT it's going to shove the same amount of air in the cylinders creating the same explosion so it must be on the way out the exhaust valves that really makes the difference, how hard the exhaust is working to make the turbo spin up that boost..

How wrong am I? What is the science behind this?


I like your 1.4 bar lines but are you sure we would only get 296 there?
Shuric the russian guy with the blue cgt car on efi, iirc he calculated 320-330 HP worth of fuel flowing out of his injectors at 20 psi but that probably get knocked back due to it being a rich mixture..


I'm thinking that their is more effecting HP @ Xpsi than I have been previously considering..
Do you think their is much for quick dirty ways to raise this HP gain at the same boost other than switching to more efficient turbos?
Like... Porting that lower charge tube.. Going to a bigger TB.. Compression changes? Do you see much for self intake/head porting gains? (I don't really)
Hmmm....


I think 20psi 300HP ish will be absolutely plenty fast with that much power being unusable most of the time and likely a dangerous widowmaker due to the powerband and turbo lag.. Going to need boost control programmed to like 10psi for 1st gear, 13psi 2nd gear, and maybe a full 20 for 3rd or maybe it jut needs race slicks on the rear to put it down..

I can't imagine someone that doesn't know just taking one of these for a drive even set to 15psi.. They will be backwards the first time they try to accelerate out of a corner and the boost hits..

Yep I think 20psi will be plenty for an ultimate goal, it'll be stupid fast a far as I'm concerned and I'll either never use it or it will be the only thing I do with the car, heh..

To be honest I think you will be able to pull it off with your euro CIS.. Bump the system pressure up to 100-110 PSI and I think that you can adjust the boost enrichment diaphragm thing in the WUR very similar to the way you can set the WUR's control pressure... With a hammer..

I need a darn TB solution..
Also, hit me up if you ever run across an available #6 hotside housing.. I wants one..
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1732
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, lets start the megapost I have more time to spend typing than in the garage unfortunately since the car isnt at home.

Fasteddie313 wrote:
CÚdric wrote:



Yeah I might be interested.....

Especially in the almost 15HP gain at the same boost just by switching turbos that I believe but don't really understand..

I get the little bit of lag increase going from the 64 to the 70 between 3k to 4k RPM..
I think that shows a little more lag than I have experienced with my 2667 with a #4 by maybe 200RPM..
I can't really tell if it shows full boost coming on around 3500 or just boost starting to come up there but in my experience with the 67 and 4 I got a full 15-16 pounds pegged around 3300-3400 when pulling from lower and anything 3800 and above boost would come up almost immediately at the flick of my right foot..
So in a nutshell your chart looks conservative to me as far as how late the power ramps up, or maybe more similar to a 1st or 2nd gear pull where it simply doesn't have the time to build boost lower..
My 3300-3400 number is more like a 4th-5th gear pull or pulling against my breaks to see how low I could get it to come on..

I need to doubblecheck numbers, when you make alot of sim runs its easy to mix them up. There is also a turbine size difference, not only compressor, its the difference between my old and new turbo.

ref is simulated baseline at 0.7bar with my engine today and dyno is the dyno data. The pulls are at 300rpm/s, just as the dynorun. Lower ramp speed shows much more boost at low revs. On the dyno i had max torque at 3000rpm for example running static.






So anyway thats below the curve, little more lag for the bigger comp and higher AR turbine housing.. Makes sense..

Buy why does it make almost 15 HP more above the curve?
Is it the lowered back pressure because of the #6?

Has it much to do with the compressor? Both compressors are pretty comfortable at 1 bar @5k RPM I'd say so would a compressor change make more power just because it's more efficient? Would it till come down to backpressure because the WG will be more open with the larger compressor?

Im finally back at work in two weeks, then i can get more details out of the model. i would say that its so called pumping work doing the magic, which you are onto here. Better efficencises results in more open wg, less pressure ratio needed over the larger more efficient turbine to create the desired boost level, hence lower back pressure. This gives more power and also lower knock proability, so you could add timing and get even more power with the larger turbo.


Would their be a post IC IAT difference that would help it make more power?
I'm not feeling their would be a larg IAT difference after a FMIC.. I think these FMICs will handle twice what we are going to put through them, especially yours..

As you said, most of the temps get eaten up by the fmic. But all that hard work/high tempereatures of a small compressor cost turbine energy to be created, hence more backpressure


So your ref 2664 and #6 dyno data lines..
Just changed the hotside from a 4 to 6 and got basically no change at stock boost?
Those 2 are real world dyno data right? And all the other higher ones are extrapolations off those from your modeling programs?

What is causing the +15 HP changing turbos do you think?
+15HP is nothing to sneeze at especially at the same boost level.. That's like wow..
I feel it must be backpressure because boost on the backside of the intake valves is boost on the backside of the intake valves given the same IAT it's going to shove the same amount of air in the cylinders creating the same explosion so it must be on the way out the exhaust valves that really makes the difference, how hard the exhaust is working to make the turbo spin up that boost..

How wrong am I? What is the science behind this?

#6 is only run number six on the dyno, its still #4 2664, bit confusing. I think i described the science behind it above, can do some more fun plots when im back at work..

I like your 1.4 bar lines but are you sure we would only get 296 there?
Shuric the russian guy with the blue cgt car on efi, iirc he calculated 320-330 HP worth of fuel flowing out of his injectors at 20 psi but that probably get knocked back due to it being a rich mixture..



I'm thinking that their is more effecting HP @ Xpsi than I have been previously considering..
Do you think their is much for quick dirty ways to raise this HP gain at the same boost other than switching to more efficient turbos?
Like... Porting that lower charge tube.. Going to a bigger TB.. Compression changes? Do you see much for self intake/head porting gains? (I don't really)
Hmmm....

Dont forget about timing aswell, it can make a world of a difference to the power lever, i have been running same timing for all runs,
which is of course not possible, and also leaves some power out in some cases

I can do some sensitivity checks running different pressure losses and see which of them gives more power. Light porting and valve seat job+improved cam can of course let lose more power when you start stretching it.





I think 20psi 300HP ish will be absolutely plenty fast with that much power being unusable most of the time and likely a dangerous widowmaker due to the powerband and turbo lag.. Going to need boost control programmed to like 10psi for 1st gear, 13psi 2nd gear, and maybe a full 20 for 3rd or maybe it jut needs race slicks on the rear to put it down..

I can't imagine someone that doesn't know just taking one of these for a drive even set to 15psi.. They will be backwards the first time they try to accelerate out of a corner and the boost hits..

Yep I think 20psi will be plenty for an ultimate goal, it'll be stupid fast a far as I'm concerned and I'll either never use it or it will be the only thing I do with the car, heh..

To be honest I think you will be able to pull it off with your euro CIS.. Bump the system pressure up to 100-110 PSI and I think that you can adjust the boost enrichment diaphragm thing in the WUR very similar to the way you can set the WUR's control pressure... With a hammer..

I need a darn TB solution..
Also, hit me up if you ever run across an available #6 hotside housing.. I wants one..

As you are onto here the power hunt will probably mostly be power numbers, i wont go there with this cars since it will be to far gone to ever make the car revert to original when time to sell, and since a nice 931 goes for so much money these days in europe it do makes you take it easier with the mods. The car need to work on track aswell and not brake, and also it need to actually improve lap times, at 240 horses it will be well enough for my car.


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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1732
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work is ongoing, still have some clearance issues, especially to the frame rail/arb mount, have to get a alupipe welded that takes less space than silicone. otherwise the pieces are slowly falling together on the stealthy intercooler install. Its not easy to build a track car and make it look standard at the same time

Need to adjust it upwards aswell, its a bit low atm, it should sit at the same height as the steering rack when its in the right place.






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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally i had some more time to work on the car. I finalized position and torqued up the comp cover, after that it was even more hose extravaganza. Since the radiator is a ebay 944 version the hoses needed some modification, less work than i thought it would be. But there are many connections to pressure test at the start up. Bought and cut up a new rad hose from a saab which had some really perfect bends and diameteres in it for this, thankfully. The front beam is back up and stuff is on its way together, fuelling, electrical stuff, waste gate and exhaust are still left before the start up, but the light in the tunnel is somewhere up there

I have contact between hoses at one side (ic and rad hoses), and also between the boost silicone hose and the frame rail/arb mount. I really will need to custom make/ weld together something out of hard piping with a more complex shape to get it to take upp less space and fit in there without rubbing.

Some tubing, if anyone is interested in any specific pipe/hose i have more pics. if you look closely i made some creative use of the oem stuff, trying to keep all the metal piping for the rad system still there.



Still looks very oem from the top, which i like!


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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw, my own garage ( my 931 is at my parents place atm) is slooowly getting there, the garage is cleared out and I took in some help to get the tiling done, to save some time. Now its time to attack walls, lights etc to get things in order, but its lots of work when you dont have so much time for stuff like this


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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, i finally got some time to put into the car. Lots and lots of time were though spent at the most awkward parts of this engine, which is the waste gate and bracket plus the heater valve (i lost the metal clip and had to order a new one :bang: ). The WG is the worst though, its not a very thought through design with lots of fixed flanges and very little possibilities to take take up the tolerances, which really can make the assembly a pain..

OK, enough whining and scraped knuckles, all of it is almost together now, Im only a couple of oil lines away from a test start. I measured them all up and they are at the hydraulic line shop for pressing the fittings. The hose is a reinforced PTFE, which is ribbed inside for extra flexibility, mega expensive, glad I had massive discounts . Will have to make a more serious effort on the oil cooler bracket though.

I also bought a strut bar from a member of the UK club which had it on his 931. But it did not fit at all, my engine seems to sit much higher strangely, well see if things settle after a test drive, but i might have to redo stuff. My car seems to be about 5-7mm narrower than his, if you took a look at where the flange holes ended up, which is interesting, quite large tolerances, or one of our cars are a bit off









A future project..

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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:




Very nice!

Which hose is the Saab hose?
I like your BOV solution more than mine for sure.. Congrats on the garage also..

The OEM lower charge tube is the one I would like to custom make an alternative for.. Some day..
That may be the one you are talking about..

I didn't put a whole lot of concern into my hoses touching eachother and/or things, except for anything sharp or spinning..
Rub guards might help in areas of concern..
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CÚdric  



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fasteddie313 wrote:
CÚdric wrote:




Very nice!

Which hose is the Saab hose?
I like your BOV solution more than mine for sure.. Congrats on the garage also..

The OEM lower charge tube is the one I would like to custom make an alternative for.. Some day..
That may be the one you are talking about..

I didn't put a whole lot of concern into my hoses touching eachother and/or things, except for anything sharp or spinning..
Rub guards might help in areas of concern..


The saab hose is cut into many pieces, the 90 degree tapered bend to the right, and the hose up to the termostat housing was ammong them. Luckily the hose was shapeded so it could possibly be done without the steel pipe. But i kept it for originality.

Regarding the loser hose im not sure how to do. I need to find a hose with the bigger inner diamter, (37mm something if i remember correctly), maybe more saab hoses to cut. My issue is that the connections on the alu radiatior are larger diamter than the stock ones.

I would also like to redo the lower chargetube, i have some ideas but it will be for the future when im up and running. You can see some rub guarding there, i have put sheets of plastic between pipes that are close to each other. Will do some more further on when oil pipes are in to.


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Fasteddie313  



Joined: 29 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:

Im not set on the fuel side yet, will see how the AFRs go when i raise the boost, if i get similar problem as carreraRSR and morghen i will have to lean it out in some way, Either by having a boost controller or rpm switching of a solenoid on the WUR line.


I have a US 931 FD I could send you, bolt on..
Add a microsquirt, WB, IAT, MAP, and easily a tach signal, and you should be able to tune your ARFs with tunerstudio via lower/upper chamber differential pressure adjusted by controlling the frequency valve, like CIS-E but works like an EBC externally...
Just leave the WUR alone.. Free FrankenCIS firmware code is all..

It will control your boost for you too, and log for you, and it sounds like you already have the IAT and WB..

Should get you into the high 290's just fine (will pump like 330)..
This is really the next step I should have taken instead of jumping in head over heals for the V8 rig..

If you eventually decide you are satisfied with it I would gladly take a 6.10 housing for it, or maybe we could work out a deal for a euro bumper or something..

That's about as legit "tuning" you can get unless you go for a real CIS-E head of some sort, or EFI.. afaik
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CÚdric wrote:

I love this graph
Could you add a GT specs turbo "2660 6.10" to this graph at 0.8 and 1 bar?
Thanks
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