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GRM Trashes the 931
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ic932  



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ideola wrote:
The point of this whole discussion is that GRM made the comparison of the 931 to the 944. Bringing up a 924NA or a 951, while interesting, is orthogonal to the discussion at hand.

And who said the comparison had to be stock-to-stock comparison? Plain and simple, a 931 offers more bang for the buck in terms of initial cost, cost to maintain, and cost to modify than the 944, beats it hands down in all three comparisons.

As for reliability, I can only comment on my experience. My 924S broke down and stranded me or my son more times in the 9 months I owned it than my three running 931s, my 928 and my 924 NA combined. The only time I have EVER been stranded by a 931 was in the first month of ownership before I had opportunity to do my own preventive maintenance.

The 924S also cost me more money than any one of my other cars to get running into reliable, saleable condition, and YES, that includes the 928 with full FOES service. Now bear in mind, this car had full documented history and was a 2-owner car before I got it, maintained by an absolutely anal Porsche guy, local PCA member. But the car was at about the 100K mark in mileage, and a whole bunch of things started going wrong all at once. Took me 9 months to sort out. None of my other 924s took nearly that long or caused nearly the frustration.

I realize this is only one example, but as I said, all of my 931s have been way more reliable.

As for maintenance intervals, I unloaded the 924S as fast as I could, so I didn't own it long enough to accumulate the miles required to redo FOES. As for the 928, because it's not an interference motor, I have not done FOES every 36 months. I did it within the first year of owning it, and have put less than 5K miles per year on it since. Given the risk vs. the cost on that car, I'm perfectly happy to drive it until the belt breaks since it won't damage the motor. If I had a 2.5L 924S/944 or a 32V 928, I wouldn't be so cavalier about it.


No, you are not going to decide the nature of the question just to fit it in to your own spin. You have no valid expierence of the 944 engine other then you bought a lemon!

Just concentrate on what you have expierence of, and not what you think the expierence should be.

Since when did this become a "bang for the buck" comparison?
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15462
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, go re-read the first five posts in the thread.
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ic932  



Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, I just did and the theme seems to be maintenance. I've got the feeling that you are about to trump me here? Where am I going wrong here?
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9xx  



Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 627
Location: Jarvenpaa, Finland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ic932 wrote:
the comparison is between STOCK applications!


Well I have a stock 177 hp 931. My first 944 was stock too as was the second one. Actually the second one was dynoed and result was 189 healthy hp from the crankshaft. The fastest of the lot is 931. No question about it.

1982 was the only year when 944 and 931 were sold side by side in Europe. 931 was more expensive. So also the factory thought it was a better model.
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Mikko

All gone: 931 '82 Alpine White, original option "220" G31 with LSD + 3 x 944
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john h  



Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 827
Location: Wellington New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

9xx wrote:
Between 2003-2006 my 944's only needed oil changes and cam shaft and balance shaft belts and some minor bits and pieces. Much much cheaper cars to run and own.


Between 1986 and now all I done to my 924 Turbo is a head gasket (due to a split radiator hose), 1st gear dog tooth (high milage and rough co-driver in an endurance race), and a clutch at 102,000 miles, and usual tyres and brake pads, its still running the same brake discs, the turbo has been swapped on and off a few times mainly to put a GT turbo and that was removed to go back to the standard turbo as the GT turbo which was brought as a rebuilt unit but had faulty seals (cost of removal and rebuild and reinstallation paid by the KKK agents in NZ).
A new back right hand corner due to brain fade while racing.

The car has now done over 260,000 miles and still running strong, and has recently be converted back to astraight road car with 968 CS leather seats and sound proofing reinstalled (removed in 1986 to save weight)

Last time I took it out on the track it was doing lap times equal to a race prepared 944 S2 (left hooker ex japan that is not road legal in NZ)

In comparing running cost with friends who run 924 turbo's and 944's the 924 Turbo wins hands down on having lowest running costs and reliability once the mileage and age start to affect the cars.
I've had a 944 which as I said I knew the NZ history and it had a pretty good UK service history as well but it was an expensive beast to run and nowhere as grunty as the 924 Turbo.
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9xx  



Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 627
Location: Jarvenpaa, Finland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like your car is a very solid example, that is nice. I think that eventual 924/931/944 running costs are dictated by a car individual that one buys.

It is down to luck too. No one can see the future or possible mechanical failures that might lurk ahead on your way. I thought I was being quite cautious when I bought my car and thought it was the best individual in that time around. But now the feeling is quite the opposite. Problems, problems, problems...

Not going to cry about it though. Some day it will the best. ( )
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Mikko

All gone: 931 '82 Alpine White, original option "220" G31 with LSD + 3 x 944
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ideola  



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 15462
Location: Woodstock IL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1^
I've gotten "lucky" three times with the 931. I was very unlucky once with 924S.

Once bitten twice shy, as the saying goes.
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Paul  



Joined: 02 Nov 2002
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Location: Southeast Wisconsin

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep driving the 931, you will come to the same conclusion as me, hopefully it will not take you 30 years like it did for me. Spike has a good home.
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna tear up there Paul! Also, it helps to have 2-3 car's worth of 931 parts laying around!
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man o man o man o man I can't wait to drive my flippin car.
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Grenadiers  



Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang in there man, you're in righty-tighty territory! No more busting knuckles, scraping skin, tearing, er, can't think of anything that ryhmes, but, easier to put things together than taking them apart. There.

I'm in lefty-loosey country myself, taking things apart on the black '81 in anticipation of pulling engine for an exhaust manny swap. Already, I"m hatin' life! BenPak 10000# lift is making it a bit easier, just have to watch my noggin keep loosing brain cells to wrenching beer, and the damn lift arms!
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'88 924S Track car.
'89 944 Turbo
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2012 Jeep Wrangler
2014 Kia Soul
2001 Ford F350 powerstroke
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Rasta Monsta  



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11332
Location: PacNW

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
In my experience a 931 is much more expensive to maintain than a 924S.

Many of us have spent more than $10,000 on a 931, how many of us have done this for a 924S?


Revisiting an ancient thread, after working as a pro tech for 3 years.

The answer to the above question, and the problem with the GRM article, is that MANY people have spent 10k on a 944.

How?

Deferred maintenance. The 944 is a car that will look and drive great until the day it blows up. Thanks to Armoral, wax, and garages, a 944 will lure someone in as a very well kept car, and command prices anywhere from 5k to 7.5k (and beyond). If you add a suspension refresh, clutch, engine reseal, FOES, intake refresh, cooling system refresh, power steering refresh, you can easily rack up the purchase price of a nice car (and YES, EVERY 944 needs this basic maintenance).

So, now that you've spent 7.5k on the car, and that amount again on deferred maintenance, what will the car be worth?

Wait for it. . .

7.5k.

Happens every day, on BMWs, Volvos, and yes, 944s.
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Han Solo  



Joined: 11 Jul 2015
Posts: 224
Location: Lebanon TN

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't seen this thread so thanks for reviving it Rasta.

I'm right in the middle of getting both a 931 and a 924S street-able. Both were neglected but the 931 sat much longer without being started. The CIS is trouble if not kept in operation. Both had rusty tanks and bad clutch master/slave cylinders. Both had rusted battery trays but the 924S was the worst. Both had rain water and mold in the passenger floor pans from the leaking battery trays and bad seals. What the 931 has on the 924S are two things...

(1) it was a one owner car and I've got the original sales receipt

(2) being an '82 the production numbers are really low.

So that's the one that will get the most attention and money from me. If you're talking performance and handing, I think the two models are very close to one another but the 931 just feels different and better to me. There's no substitute for the turbo surge and manual steering rack in a lighter car than the 924S or 944.
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