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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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 Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| pcelenta wrote: | | With all due respect I am not trolling. Just pointing out that in my 30 plus years in and around automotive restoration and refinishing the statements made were less than accurate and it seems other here feel similarly. |
Sorry you feel that way, it has been 15 years since I painted in a professional environment so I might be on top of this stuff, but you can't just say "you're wrong"; That's trolling. A professional knows that enamel swells and absorbs into the surface below it, so must have a sealer of some kind underneath. I always end up having to fix paint jobs like that, or where someone sprayed alkyd on the galvanization because it was the cheapest paint at the shop...
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| jason c wrote: | | If that was the case, you should have said so instead of insisting it could be done with no specific proof or citing how you make it work. Why not ask a question as to how I prepped it & what I used? |
Its not magic, you check the label then you wipe the surface down, and you shoot.
| jason c wrote: | | This is good advice on its face but you would be surprised at how much wrong information you'll get. |
If you're buying paint from Napa, then I agree. But if you go to DuPont, PPG, or BASF, the only thing they sell is their own product lines. If there isn't one in your town, it is worth the drive, because they are trained to know what goes with what, or can look it up for you. Generally, as long as you stick with the proper system you can't go wrong.
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Here is some Alkyd paint Guards Red and enamel Guards red paint side by side. I've had this stuff for years because I won't touch it, but is cool to have around for occasions like this.
(the enamel has the dot below it)
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| edredas wrote: | | Its not magic, you check the label then you wipe the surface down, and you shoot. |
This is another vague response. Its going to lead someone down the wrong road. Again, just because the tech sheet says something, it doesn't necessarily mean its the correct way for your project. The tech sheet doesn't cover all bases.
| edredas wrote: | | If you're buying paint from Napa, then I agree. But if you go to DuPont, PPG, or BASF, the only thing they sell is their own product lines. If there isn't one in your town, it is worth the drive, because they are trained to know what goes with what, or can look it up for you. |
This is not accurate either. I was talking about the main tech center for glasurit (they don't sell anything, they are there for tech information), not Napa or my jobbers. I have two jobbers I can get all three of the product lines from. I've been dealing with both for about 20 years. 90% of what I use is glasurit. I use DuPont only if I need to match what is on the car for collision. To me, DuPont looks like garbage on a Porsche.
I don't need your help, on the subject of either comment. I've been trying to give you the opportunity to share the knowledge you claim to have, knowledge you should be sharing so the op can learn.
You continue to assert that you know what youre talking about yet refuse to offer any information on what YOU use or how YOU make it work. "Read the label"!?
Isn't this the definition of trolling? |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| jason c wrote: | | This is another vague response. Its going to lead someone down the wrong road. Again, just because the tech sheet says something, it doesn't necessarily mean its the correct way for your project. The tech sheet doesn't cover all bases. |
Step one: You flat out cannot use Alkyd paints or primers. They will not stick to the aluminum bumpers and galvanized panels.
Again, they react with these surfaces and will chip off over time. Painters like Earl Schlibe and Maaco loved this paint back in the '80's and 90's because it was dirt cheap, and they would literally take a grinder to these cars to get it to stick. 
Not sure what is so cryptic about that.
Step two: You are obviously going to need to use an enamel or Urethane paint. I'm not going to go into clear coats here.
Acrylic Enamel is what the factory originally used. It is not as durable as Urethane.
Warning: 2k Urethane contains isocyanates that is extremely hazardous to you if you are not wearing proper equipment or not handled correctly.
Step three: Choose the vendor you will be buying your paint from and tell them which paint you choose.
There are compete systems that are specific to the exact paint you choose. I.E. If you choose urethane, you get the primer that is need for Urethane paint. If you choose enamel, then you get the primers needed for spraying enamel.
How you choose to prep the surface is up to you! I even said in my first post here, "Either way you go, then you'll be fine!" meaning if you want to remove the galvanizing, then it is up to you!
If you are using Primers that are not apart of the system, just be sure to make sure the are compatible by whoever, even you got to call Obama. Someone will know and help you.
I am not going into the primers need outside the system or if body filler will be used, that is between you and the tech.
Step Three: This really isn't a step but more of a tip.
If you are spraying enamel, primer sealer can be used on metal, but if body work is involved, a sealer of some kind must be used over anything that has filler or has been sanded.
If you have ever seen a cheap paint job that has bondo showing and 100 grit sanding showing through, that is caused by the enamel absorbing into the surface below. It looks fine when painted because it swells first, then absorbing, magnifying the tiniest of scratches...
Anything else?
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| edredas wrote: | | jason c wrote: | | This is another vague response. Its going to lead someone down the wrong road. Again, just because the tech sheet says something, it doesn't necessarily mean its the correct way for your project. The tech sheet doesn't cover all bases. |
Step one: You flat out cannot use Alkyd paints or primers. They will not stick to the aluminum bumpers and galvanized panels.
Again, they react with these surfaces and will chip off over time. Painters like Earl Schlibe and Maaco loved this paint back in the '80's and 90's because it was dirt cheap, and they would literally take a grinder to these cars to get it to stick.
Not sure what is so cryptic about that.
Step two: You are obviously going to need to use an enamel or Urethane paint. I'm not going to go into clear coats here.
Acrylic Enamel is what the factory originally used. It is not as durable as Urethane.
Warning: 2k Urethane contains isocyanates that is extremely hazardous to you if you are not wearing proper equipment or not handled correctly.
Step three: Choose the vendor you will be buying your paint from and tell them which paint you choose.
There are compete systems that are specific to the exact paint you choose. I.E. If you choose urethane, you get the primer that is need for Urethane paint. If you choose enamel, then you get the primers needed for spraying enamel.
How you choose to prep the surface is up to you! I even said in my first post here, "Either way you go, then you'll be fine!" meaning if you want to remove the galvanizing, then it is up to you!
If you are using Primers that are not apart of the system, just be sure to make sure the are compatible by whoever, even you got to call Obama. Someone will know and help you.
I am not going into the primers need outside the system or if body filler will be used, that is between you and the tech.
Step Three: This really isn't a step but more of a tip.
If you are spraying enamel, primer sealer can be used on metal, but if body work is involved, a sealer of some kind must be used over anything that has filler or has been sanded.
If you have ever seen a cheap paint job that has bondo showing and 100 grit sanding showing through, that is caused by the enamel absorbing into the surface below. It looks fine when painted because it swells first, then absorbing, magnifying the tiniest of scratches...
Anything else? |
Yes. None of those are steps to repainting the op's car. At best, they're steps to choosing material. Please advise the op the exact prep & primer that you used to so save the galv. That is the question here. You haven't even done this have you? Is that why you don't want to explain how its done.
"How you prep is up to you"? What does this mean? Anything will work?
How you prep & what to use is the op's issue. You haven't provided any info for him, you just continue to litter his thread with vague & non issue comments.
You keep bringing up alkyd like its the top of discussion but no one but you is talking about it.
The reason you see 100 grit scratches is because they sanded it with 100 grit. With exception of a restoration shop that needs to use enamel for a period correct finish, paint shops don't use enamel anymore. A lot of areas have banned it due to the VOC.
The reason you see sand scratches is because they used a coarse grit to save time. They use a filler primer over the top & block the primer down. After its painted & shYes ed, the solvents evaporate out and the primer shrinks and the scratches show. This will happen with any material. Even the materials that claim not to shrink will. You will not have sand scratches if the filler is cured and fine finished before the primer is applied. How fine you can go depends on the primer you use, they all have a recommended scratch range for different type of substrates. |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| jason c wrote: | | Yes. None of those are steps to repainting the op's car. At best, they're steps to choosing material. Please advise the op the exact prep & primer that you used to so save the galv. That is the question here. |
You do not just prep a car for primer without reading the label. To read the label, you must first choose the materials.
To prep galvanizing for paint, I first read the label to make sure there will be no reaction with the surface and prep according to what it says. Basically, do what ever the label says.... read the label, it will tell you.
Do you want me to type the label information out for the 5 million primers that will work? Or can you just read the label?
I wipe some with a solvent, others with a different solvent, then again I gently scuff others according to the label.
| jason c wrote: | | The reason you see sand scratches is because they used a coarse grit to save time. They use a filler primer over the top & block the primer down. After its painted & shYes ed, the solvents evaporate out and the primer shrinks and the scratches show. This will happen with any material. Even the materials that claim not to shrink will. You will not have sand scratches if the filler is cured and fine finished before the primer is applied. How fine you can go depends on the primer you use, they all have a recommended scratch range for different type of substrates. |
True, but you absolutely cannot sand anything that enamel will sit on or it will be dull and magnify scratches, is my point. Also, the surface below can't be harder or it will chip, if it softer it will look blotchy, this is where sealer comes in.
P.S. I think you're thinking of Lacquer paints that have been banned, not enamel.
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| edredas wrote: | | jason c wrote: | | Yes. None of those are steps to repainting the op's car. At best, they're steps to choosing material. Please advise the op the exact prep & primer that you used to so save the galv. That is the question here. |
You do not just prep a car for primer without reading the label. To read the label, you must first choose the materials.
To prep galvanizing for paint, I first read the label to make sure there will be no reaction with the surface and prep according to what it says. Basically, do what ever the label says.... read the label, it will tell you.
Do you want me to type the label information out for the 5 million primers that will work? Or can you just read the label?
I wipe some with a solvent, others with a different solvent, then again I gently scuff others according to the label. |
This is another attempt at avoiding the question. The question is; what do YOU recommend? What have YOU used to save the galv? My grandmother can tell him to pick a product & read the can!
| edredas wrote: | | [quotes="jason c"]The reason you see sand scratches is because they used a coarse grit to save time. They use a filler primer over the top & block the primer down. After its painted & shYes ed, the solvents evaporate out and the primer shrinks and the scratches show. This will happen with any material. Even the materials that claim not to shrink will. You will not have sand scratches if the filler is cured and fine finished before the primer is applied. How fine you can go depends on the primer you use, they all have a recommended scratch range for different type of substrates. |
| edredas wrote: | | True, but you absolutely cannot sand anything that enamel will sit on or it will be dull and magnify scratches, is my point. |
Any dried substrate must be sanded prior to coating. Whether it shows or not depends on the prep. The sand scratch showing rule applies to all materials, it has nothing to do with an enamel magnifying. All materials will "magnify", if that's what you want to call it.
| edredas wrote: | | Also, the surface below can't be harder or it will chip, if it softer it will look blotchy, this is where sealer comes in. |
This is complete jibrish that has nothing to to with the topic at hand. |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I have used many different primers, because I don't always use the same paints. If I'm painting a car in Lacquer, the primer might call for me to prep the surface with Lacquer thinner. But if I use Lacquer thinner on a surface I am prepping for primer sealer because I am painting Enamel, it will chip off... and so on and so on.
Do I really need to sit here and explain how to prep for every type of primer.
This is not very cryptic at all.
| jason c wrote: | | Any dried substrate must be sanded prior to coating. |
Absolutely non-sense. Please stop.
| jason c wrote: | | This is complete jibrish that has nothing to to with the topic at hand. |
Your response is exactly why "experience" will never replace education. I know before I spray a paint how it will react with the others, and you just have to find out.
Here you go, educate yourself on sealers.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-iwnkfOjMcIC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=automotive+sealer+primer+keeps+color+from+absorbing+dull&source=bl&ots=SimkNlXBoX&sig=Wgja0NNlJtq5A7FfoSTSet1bhho&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KjRIVZKLL5P_ggTXj4HACw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=automotive%20sealer%20primer%20keeps%20color%20from%20absorbing%20dull&f=false
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| edredas wrote: | I have used many different primers, because I don't always use the same paints. If I'm painting a car in Lacquer, the primer might call for me to prep the surface with Lacquer thinner. But if I use Lacquer thinner on a surface I am prepping for primer sealer because I am painting Enamel, it will chip off... and so on and so on.
Do I really need to sit here and explain how to prep for every type of primer.
This is not very cryptic at all. |
Its not cryptic, its rambling to avoid the question. He's not going to use a lacquer or enamel on galv. Its unlikely he's going to use either at all.
| edredas wrote: | | jason c wrote: | | Any dried substrate must be sanded prior to coating. |
Absolutely non-sense. Please stop. |
Wet-on-wets do not need sanding, they are not allowed to dry. Any substrate that is dry (fully cured, out of the recoat window) should be sanded prior to topcoating. Do not confuse "dry" to " dry to the touch", they are not the same. Applying a coating to a substrate that is out of its recoat window or does not have mechanical adhesion (has been sanded) is hack way to do it & will not provide good adhesion.
| edredas wrote: | | jason c wrote: | | This is complete jibrish that has nothing to to with the topic at hand. |
Your response is exactly why "experience" will never replace education. I know before I spray a paint how it will react with the others, and you just have to find out. |
I understand the chemistry. You apparently don't have the experience to anwser the question. Experience is always the final proof of qualification of a product even for paint manufactures. They test every product before they send it to the market. If all they needed was chemical theory, they wouldn't do the tests. Theory must always be proven. If you know the chemistry so well, why do you read the label?
This is the question you keep avoiding:
| funcar wrote: | | edredas, which primer part number do you recommend? (a specific link would be helpful) |
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edredas
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 861
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Funcar, stay away from his advice. Absolutely run! Do not sand the sealer, if you even scuff it by mistake, re-coat it with another layer!
If you are using a DuPont primer, then prep the panel according to how the DuPont wants that panel prepped. They will know better than me how to do it.
Jason, Stop trolling!
_________________
'84 944 -White, Brown interior
'84 944 -Red, Automatic
'86 944 -Garnet, Fully loaded, Koni suspension
'87 924S -Red, 300hp 951 swap
'87 924S -Red, Project Car
'88 924S -Red, Daily Driver |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| edredas wrote: | Funcar, stay away from his advice. Absolutely run! Do not sand the sealer, if you even scuff it by mistake, re-coat it with another layer!
If you are using a DuPont primer, then prep the panel according to how the DuPont wants that panel prepped. They will know better than me how to do it.
Jason, Stop trolling! |
You're a moron.
My advise is solid. You are the definition of a troll. All you've done is provide irrelevant, misleading & sometimes wrong information, claiming you know how to do it with no contribution to his problem despite being asked to do so by both him (first) and I. That is what trolling is! Research that!
| edredas wrote: | | .... prep the panel according to how the DuPont wants that panel prepped. They will know better than me how to do it. |
Finally some truth out of you.  |
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jason c
Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 1018
Location: Nwi
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:34 am Post subject: |
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From a DuPont tech sheet chosen at random.
What does it say under dry time & recoat??????
Copyright © 2010 DuPont. All rights reserved. The DuPont Oval Logo and all trademarks listed herein with ® or ™ are trademarks or registered trademarks of E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company or its affiliates.
A DuPont OEM / Commercial Finishes Product
DuPont™ Corlar® 934S™
Primer-Sealer
Type
Two-component, 3.5 VOC, epoxy primer-sealer.
Description
A non-sanding, gray primer-sealer that delivers excellent appearance (very smooth, very little texture) and excellent
corrosion protection.
Suggested Uses
Over properly treated metal substrates. Note: clean and degrease substrate to remove contaminants. Treat bare
steel with DuPont™ 5717S™ or 5718S™ Conditioners. Treat aluminum with DuPont™ 225S™ or 226S™
Conditioners.
Compatible Coatings
Compatible with all DuPont OEM / Commercial Finishes topcoat systems.
Not Recommended For
Immersion service or stainless steel
Dry Film Characteristics
Chemical Resistance VERY GOOD
Humidity Resistance over treated substrate EXCELLENT
Weatherability with appropriate topcoat EXCELLENT
Adhesion EXCELLENT
Holdout GOOD to VERY GOOD
Solvent Resistance EXCELLENT
Mix Ratio
Combine components and mix thoroughly.
Two Component System Parts by Volume
DuPont™ 934S™ Primer 5
DuPont™ 936S™ or 937S™ Activator 1
Initial application viscosity: 13 seconds in a #3 Zahn Cup
Induction Time
No induction is required.
Pot Life
30 minutes: 14 seconds in a #3 Zahn Cup
1-2 hours: 15 seconds in a #3 Zahn Cup
Maximum: 4-6 hours at 70°F (21°C)
Additional Comments
DuPont™ 934S™ is more of a non-sanding primer-sealer than a surfacer or filler. It is not designed for extensive
sanding, especially after drying to a hard cure. Light overall or nib sanding can be done after air drying for 4-6 hours
or force drying at 30 minutes at 180°F (82°C).
Application Conditions
Do not apply if material, substrate or ambient temperature is less than 55°F (13°C) or above 110°F (43°C). The
substrate must be at least 5°F (3°C) above the dew point. Relative humidity should be below 90%.
Application
ƒ Apply using a cross-coat technique, top-to-bottom, then side-to-side. Each coat should be medium-wet with no
flash between coats.
ƒ Pressure pot (60-70 psi @ gun & 10-12 fluid oz/min) or siphon (60-70 psi @ gun) application is recommended to
provide the best atomization and delivery.
ƒ Paint heaters can help provide a smoother appearance by controlling the temperature and viscosity of the
product, especially under adverse or changing conditions.
Dry Time
77°F (25°C) & 50% Rh at recommended film thickness
Dry to touch 30 min
Tack free 30 min
Print free 1 hr
To topcoat After 15 min flash if activated with DuPont™ 936S™ Activator. If more than 2 mil DFT (~4 mil wet) is
applied, allow a minimum of 30 minutes flash.
Note: Product must be sanded if allowed to dry for more than 72 hours. Products may be force dried 30 min at 140-180°F
(60-82°C).
Recoat
When recoating with itself, scuff sanding is required if the primer-sealer has been allowed to dry more than 72 hours. For
optimum appearance sand with 320 grit or finer until smooth.
Application Equipment
Pressure Pot (recommended)
Siphon Gun
Airless Spray
Air Assisted Airless
Suction Spray
Gravity Feed Gun
HVLP
Maximum Service Temperature
200°F (92°C) in continuous service
300°F (148°C) in intermittent heat
Volume Solids
49.6% unactivated
49.9% RTS mixed 5:1 with DuPont™ Corlar® 937S™ Activator
Weight Solids
70.0% unactivated
69.1% RTS mixed 5:1 with DuPont™ Corlar® 937S™ Activator
Weight Per Gallon
12.1 lbs/gal average unactivated
°F / °C
Suggested Dry Film Thickness
1.2-1.8 mil
Theoretical Coverage Per Gallon
800 sq. ft./gal average @ 1 mil DFT RTS mixed 5:1 with DuPont™ Corlar® 937S™ Activator
Gloss
Satin sheen
Color
Off white / gray
Flash Point (Closed Cup)
Below 20-70°F (-7 to 23°C)
Shelf Life
12 months minimum
Application Solvents
Ready-to-spray below 3.5 lbs/gal VOC upon activation. Further reduction may result in greater than 3.5 lbs/gal VOC.
Cleanup Solvents
DuPont™ 3602S™ Thinner
DuPont™ 8685S™ Reducer
Environmental
VOC content (lbs/gal) LE AP
DuPont™ Corlar® 934S™ Primer 3.0 2.6
Mixed 5:1 with DuPont™ Corlar® 937S™ Activator 3.1 2.7
For VOC Regulated Areas
These directions refer to the use of products that may be restricted or require special mixing instructions in your
area. Follow recommendations in the DuPont Compliant Products Chart for your area.
Safety And Handling
DuPont is committed to helping you develop and maintain a safe working environment. Carefully read the specific
warnings and precautions printed on the labels of all DuPont products before handling and using. These products are for
industrial use by trained professional painters only.
Ready to use paint materials containing isocyanates can cause irritation of the respiratory organs and hypersensitive
reactions. Asthma sufferers, those with allergies and anyone with a history of respiratory complaints must not be asked to
work with products containing isocyanates.
Do not sand, flame cut, braze or weld dry coating without a NIOSH approved air purifying respirator with particulate filters
or appropriate ventilation, and gloves.
01/10 |
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Rasta Monsta
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 11723
Location: PacNW
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Oh, fer fack's sake.
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- WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3
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Glemon
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 262
Location: Lincoln, NE
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I am not an expert on paint, but it appears we already have quite enough of them here, but getting back to to original posters appreciation of the anti-corrosion properties of the galvanized bodies and desire to keep it. I agree, but....
Cars rust from the inside out (unless you leave them out in the elements for decades and the finish eventually oxidizes off). When you see bubbles coming up through the paint or in the paint you can rest assured that it is not just "surface rust" as sellers of old cars have loved to call it forever. These bubbles started as rust inside the panel, not on the surface. The primary benefit of the galvanizing is on the inner surfaces (inner fender wells, rocker panels, etc.). I am going to assume you are contemplating repainting the outer surfaces only--for the exterior of the car if the finish sticks and covers it will keep the exterior from rusting, so I would lean towards not worrrying about the galvinizing, sanding it down, smoothing it out, and refinishing to your budget and taste.
Good Luck, Greg
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68 TR250
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