924Board.org

TJC · Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: Reverse Transplant!

Okay, here's the deal with my previous bellhousing question. As noted in my sig, we also have an '81 VW Westy and there has been some chatter on the Samba Vanagon board about transplanting a 924S/944 engine into a Vanagon. To say the least, this does interest me.

However, the best I can tell so far is that without fabricating an adaptor for the 091/094 transaxle (nobody commercially makes one) the 2.0L EA831 based engine will only fit...using the South African bellhousing as 5 cylinder Audi engines were installed there.

Unfortunately I do not have at my immediate disposal a 2.0L block or a 2.5L block with their respective bellhousings here so I may compare the two. I've also read the threads about putting the Audi in a 924 and it seems they all use the 931 bellhousing.

I of course have considered a 911 swap as it has been done and is fairly straightforward...Porsche even did it themselves with the B32...but the engine costs kind of put me off a bit. But it would be cool, and I haven't taken it off the table yet, though my wife might!

In any event, if anybody can help me out here with some knowledge I'd sure appreciate it.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW

Have you considered STi power? There is an easy kit, and (for some strange reason) there are plenty of donors stuffed/in the boneyard.

_________________
Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

TJC · Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:01 am Post subject:

Yes it's a very common and somewhat economical swap, but I really would like to keep the vehicle, let's say, "Family" oriented, i.e. German. Swapping a Porsche engine would feel more natural, plus the "racer" in me would appreciate it more. I'm not going for speed at all with this idea, just a bit more power and having something different than what most are doing now...never really taken the easy way...too stubborn/stupid!

My other choices would be Audi, similar to the 5 cylinder vans in South Africa, or a later VW inline waterpumper.

The South African bellhousing and engine mount bar would even allow me to install the 2.0L 924 engine rather easily. Getting those bits is somewhat difficult though...any members out there from South Africa?!?

Thank's for the input.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW

If you want to stay in the family, it is far easier and cheaper to get power out of a stroked 2 liter bus motor than a 924 2.0 or 2.5, IMO.

Also, my buddy may be selling his 2.2l 911 motor, if you'd like me to inquire on price for that.
_________________
Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

TJC · Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:16 am Post subject:

Hi Rasta,

To begin, I do have respect for the Type 4 engine, especially the bottom end, but unfortunately (and I know there are going to be people that will disagree with me on this point) the limiting factor are the heads. There is no doubt that power can be achieved, however the cost is not so reasonable and with the products that are available...well the quality is not the greatest. One of the top Type 4 builders in this country is Jake Raby, and although I have never met him, I have a lot of respect for the work that he has done on these engines. However it does come at a price, and I don't think I could justify spending what it would take to build or buy his Camper Special for my needs or desires. My current engine is fairly fresh (less than 15,000 miles on the bottom end and less than 8000 miles on the rings and new heads) but is also fairly weak (not my build by the way). I have thought about tearing it down again and replacing the cam with one that I had Jerry at Schnieder Cams grind up for me as it will provide more torque and work well with the dual Weber 40's that I have. It's also a solid lifter grind which will let me get rid of those Bloody hydraulics that have a nasty habit of collapsing (another story). I still may go this route, if for nothing else than to test Jerry's cam, but one of my objectives is to be able to drive up to one of our favorite campgrounds in the Hualapai Mountains without worrying about low oil pressure, high oil temperature and being in first gear on the last leg of the trip. Now to give you something to reference, this location is only 9 miles south of the city of Kingman, Az. near our home. The elevation change is from 3300 feet to 6500 feet and there are some 6% plus grades...poor "Happy" suffers on that trip!

Just some more food for thought, the stock Type 4 in this application puts out 67 HP @ 4200 RPM and 101 ft./lb. torque at 3000 RPM.

An US version NA 2.0L 924 is about 115 HP @ 5750 RPM and 122 ft./lb. @ 3500 RPM, Turbo version 150 HP @ 5500 RPM and 152 ft./lb @ 3500 RPM.

924S/944 NA 8V 150 HP @ 5500RPM and 142 ft/lb @ 3000 RPM, 944 Turbo (not S) 220 HP @ 5800 RPM 243 ft.lb. @3500 RPM.

These are stock figures for base models as I'm sure you know, and knowing these cars and engines as well as you do I'm sure you can appreciate that a Type 4 will be getting into the "overstressed" area when being modified to obtain the necessary figures that are "stock" on some of these others.

One other bit of personal backround re: the Type 4. Back in the late '70's and through the '80's I was very involved with building VW race engines (Type 1) for oval track Midgets. Another builder experimented extensively with using the Type 4 powerplant,( and let me say we were friendly and not at all aggressive toward each other, even exchanged ideas on occassion), but just couldn't achieve any great success with the engine...it just didn't breath well. I could go on and on regarding this, and why it doesn't respond very well to Supercharging or Turbocharging, but that's another subject. Oh...and before I get flamed if any diehard Type 4 people read this, I'm not saying it can't be done, just, well, oh I better leave it at that!

Lastly let me say that I truly value your opinion, and I have read many of your posts and appreciate the help and guidance that you offer so many of us on this board so I for one would just like to say, Thanks for your help!
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

TJC · Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:37 am Post subject:

Oops

!

One other thing to consider for this application is having a broad torque curve. Once one begins to mess with modifying an existing powerplant for more horsepower, sometimes the torque band gets narrower to achieve the result. In this scenario, that would not be a good thing as the Vanagon needs as much and as broad a torque curve as it can get. That is one reason that I'm considering the 2.5L 924S/944 engine as anybody who has driven one of these cars knows that it is definately "torquey". Of course a 3.0 968 wouldn't be so bad either

.

And yes, with almost any engine mod that I will make, it will be partnered with the appropriate gearbox, brake and chassis mods, etc. etc. etc.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

Rasta Monsta · Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 11723 Location: PacNW

My Type IV two cents:

I had headwork, cam, Webers and exhaust on my 914 2.0, and it ran like a bat. . .and a 2.3 stroker is relatively easy!

Anyhow, whatever your choice, good luck on your project.
_________________
Toofah King Bad

WeiBe (1987 924S 2.5t) - 931 S3

TJC · Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject:

Well, after taking some simple measurements from my 924 2.5 engine I've decided that although the conversion can be done with a fair amount of fabrication, I've decided that it's not a job that I want to tackle at this stage in my life. The main problems occur with the length of the engine and the need for the sensors on the bellhousing (adaptor plate). The back of the engine bay would also need to be modified. Like I say, not impossible, but something I'm not interested in tackling right now.

However, I have been looking at other alternatives, including as Rasta suggested, building a strong Type 4.

Other considerations are a 911 based engine and possibly using the 2.0L 924 Turbo engine.

Again if I may ask, are there any members (perhaps from South Africa) that have access to the SA bellhousing and engine support for a Vanagon?
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com

FJ40Jim · Joined: 13 Feb 2011 Posts: 26 Location: Central Ohio, USA

If you wanna stay in the family (as I would), why not use the SA bellhousing & mounts, along with a locally sourced 2.3 or 2.5 inline 5? It's a cheap to buy, robust, parts are readily available (more so than the old Audi 4cyl).

TJC · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:57 am Post subject:

I have considered the Audi and it's also a popular swap, but I think either the 911 or the 924 Turbo are going to be our choice.

I am currently trying to source the SA bits for use with the 924 engine while also keeping my eyes open for the right 911 engine to come along.
If the SA bits become available at a reasonable cost, then we will probably go ahead with that swap since I can source the watercooled Vanagon bits I would need locally to make the swap a bit easier. I have not seen or heard of anyone putting a 924 Turbo in one of these, so that may be fun!

On the other hand nothing sounds like a well tuned 911! The swap for that is fairly easy and has been done many times, Kennedy even makes a flywheel to allow the use of the VW style clutch setup when bolting the engine to the VW 091 trans.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!

www.ttrs1.com