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931Owner
Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 352
Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
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 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Love the pictures!
So... did you guys ever find the problem and get it running eventually?
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1980 Turbo
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TJC
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Central-ish Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:14 am Post subject: |
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As of 2004 I know the car was still in Mr. Edwards' collection and was not running at that time. He had a desire to keep the car all original, but I don't know if the faulty part could ever be replaced. At one time there were discussions about putting a more modern type of ignition system on the car, but I don't know if that was ever done, or if Jim even owns the car still. I thought I saw that the car changed hands, but I cannot confirm this.
As my priorities changed I've become somewhat out of touch with these matters, but it was a very interesting and exciting time for me and my family, which is one reason we own a 924 today  .
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'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Now that is what I call information. You surely killed the curiosity of the cat in this case.
Id like to see more about this subject if possible.
Thanks
dreamgts
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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TJC has posted some very good information regarding this topic. It was mentioned that a 924 GTP model had a 2.5lit(8 valve???) engine besides the 16 valver.. right.
So am I correct if I were to say that to be more correct in replicating one of these monsters, it would be more advisable to obtain an early 944 model. or would it be more sensible and correct to maybe convert a 924S model which also seems to share the same engine train. I am aware that a supplier based in the UK has a kit to convert a 944 into a GTP.
While also noting that this model GTP was turbo charged , would this be the same engine installed in the 951??? It also seems that turbocharging a 2.5 lit engine is more difficult and un practable to do than a 2.lit NA.
Any comments views about this.
dreamgts
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2 PORSCHE 924 (CURRENT PROJECTS)
2 CLASSIC CORTINAS (FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT(FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT 132 2000CC(JUST PURCHASED)
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TJC
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Central-ish Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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The two 924 GTP cars did not use an eight valve engine at all, only the unique 16v engine that I described earlier. The only cars that saw this engine in their engine bay were 005, 006 and the GTR (005's engine) that was campaigned in Australia for a time. The engine is not the same as the 951. The GTP engine also had dry sump lubrication with a belt driven oil pump and an oil tank in the left rear corner of the car.
I will try to find some additional photos of the engine to help clarify what it looks like.
Your quest to replicate a true GTP will be a challenge unless you can be satisfied with an engine and transaxle that is production based. I feel that you may be very hard pressed to find originals. If that is not an issue, I would look for a 924 shell (not a 944) and install the body pieces that you need, perhaps a turbo on a 944 16v engine and a 951 limited slip trans. You will be looking at a lot of fabrication time as most of the body kits that are out there are GTR based, especially in the front grill area. The GTP cars had a unique radiator that was at the bottom of the grill section and went across the width of the frontal area (see pics, the lower black section between the two yellow Shell decals is the radiator location). The intercooler and oil cooler shared the space side by side where the radiator would be in a production car. The oil cooler was on the right and the intercooler was on the left. Both of these components were essentially above the radiator. Your're also going to have to fabricate a huge fuel cell and use a different dashboard. Then of course you will have chassis and brake modifications to make and the installation of an aluminum roll cage, oh and the steel reinforcements done in the engine bay.
I urge you to continue pursuing this idea, in fact I've toyed with it myself from time to time, as you would indeed build yourself a very interesting car. Even if one weren't inclined to go 100% "Race Ready Replica" I think it would still be a nifty project and a fun car to own! I will dig through and try to post some more pics to try to help you see the differences in what makes a 924 a GTP. I know I have pics of 005 and also 006 which was in storage at Porsche when I did this project. I also have some pics of the Hamilton GTR that was using 005's bits which I took off of that car.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks TJC, yes I know its very hard to replicate this type of car especially getting parts since I live in Malta. ATM I am trying to replicate a D Prod body style 924 which also has been difficult especialy parts for the engine since these were going to cost a bomb for shipping only. Although I intend to still build /replicate a 933 D prod engine in time.
I had to content with my own version of the 933 D Prod in fact, but still happy about the project.
I like toying about the idea of the GTP seems like a very interesting car with loads of history. I have some clear pics with one using a 2.lit engine with a massive intake and Kugelfischer fuel system.
Id be very interested to see some pics of more detail, but as you said 100% replica would be very hard to achieve.
thanks
dreamgts
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2 PORSCHE 924 (CURRENT PROJECTS)
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1 CLASSIC FIAT(FINISHED)
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Nein37
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 513
Location: New London, CT
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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100% replica of a GTP would be impossible.
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1981 931 CGT replica, OEM CGT intercooler, .8 BAR WG spring, GTS Headlights, Innovative Wide band A/F, A/C delete, 16" Fuchs, Weltmeister 200lb lowering springs, Bilstein HDs front, Koni Sport rears. |
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Nein37 wrote: | | 100% replica of a GTP would be impossible. |
I agree with you 100%. The most difficult part would obviously be the mechanics ..engine parts etc. Though the car still interests me. At the moment Im still working to get stuff ready for what Im calling the 933T and im also trying to get another old classic ready for some competion too, all stuff for these cars are already thought for, just need my mechanic to find more time to work on them, well at least 1 does not need much mechanical work since the engine and braaking system already had some interesting mods applied to it which actually were a bonus find, but the 933T does, besides the fact that i want it to be as near perfect (workmanship wise) as possible.
Im sure though that I can find some time to do some research on this particular car and save some thoughts and ideas, maybe for future use.
Though I can still see the closest car to use as a replica GTP(the one with the 16 valve head) would be a 16 valve (S model) 2.5 lit 944. I think it would save some time on fabrictaion too to fit the 2.5 lit in a 924. I dont see any problems with altering the body to the GTP look either.
Even if one had to opt for the 2.lit version , this would still be impossible to replicate 100%. Although one can go as close as possible certain parts (Kugelfischer system) would be impossible to obtain. So as I see it with this particular tpe vehicle a person will have be content with 'the closest' he can get to replicate it.
Obviously these are my views.
dreamgts
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1 OPEL PANEL VAN
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TJC
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Central-ish Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| dreamgts wrote: |
I like toying about the idea of the GTP seems like a very interesting car with loads of history. I have some clear pics with one using a 2.lit engine with a massive intake and Kugelfischer fuel system.
Id be very interested to see some pics of more detail, but as you said 100% replica would be very hard to achieve.
thanks
dreamgts |
Just a point of clarification if I may. The 924 GTR's came with at least two types of bodywork, most with huge "rounded" wheel arches on the front and flares similar to the GTS models on the back as well as a few with the LeMans type bodywork as seen on the GTP cars. All GTR cars had the 2L engine. I believe the car you refer to as a GTP with a 2L engine is in fact a GTR with LeMans bodywork. There are a couple quick visuals to help distinquish a GTR from a GTP, one being the location of the hood scoop which is further toward the front of the car on a GTP, two is the radiator location that I detailed earlier, third is the cross brace (an X brace that goes across the engine bay from strut tower to strut tower area) is used on a GTR but not on a GTP as the engine is in the way and fourth is the external location for the oil tank fill which is just to the left of the right tail light on the GTR and in the left 1/4 panel of the GTP.
If I were inclined to build a GTP replica, I would choose a 924S as my base since it would be easier to put in a choice of 944 based engines, drivetrain, chassis bits, etc. However my biggest consideration in doing this is that it would be loads easier to adapt the rear LeMans bodywork to the rear 1/4 panels. When I get a chance to post some of the build photos of 005 you will get a better idea of what I mean here. If one wanted to build a LeMans bodywork GTR replica there may be more options of a donor shell. It may be easier also to build a replica LeMans bodied GTR since the engines used in those cars were more "production" based. I remember seeing two GTR engines on pallets in Mr. Edwards' warehouse and although the "Race" induction system may be difficult to source, it may be easier to replicate, other than that a race build up of the engine and conversion to dry sump lubrication would not be that difficult. You may also stand a better chance of actually locating one to measure, take photos of, etc. to aid in your build.
Given the proper amount of resources, research, time and money one could possibly get very close to building a replica GTP, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Nothing is going to be 100%, that I cannot argue, but one shouldn't feel that the task is impossible to get very, very close if he has the means and the will. I once had a client who wanted a 1934 Packard Dual Cowl Phaeton so badly that he had an exact replica of the body built, from steel, by an old school panel beater...cost him a fortune, but he had it done. Remember, "you have a Dream" .
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!
www.ttrs1.com |
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Yes I do have a dream, one being an owner of a close replica of a Dprod 933 which is underway, slowly but surely as they say. This was possible due to loads of information fellow members posted in my threads, I have thanked them before and will thank them again. Thank you gentlemen (that includes you Grenadiers).
Building the GTP will definetly be more challenging, even to obtain the body panels for it will be a challenge, although I have a source for the rounded type front panels - kit you mentioned from the UK --
http://212.67.202.62/~clubauto/GTR%20PROJECT%20PROGRESS.htm
these though as you said are for GTR type model.
As you said though The GTR might be a bit more easy to replicate mechanicaly, though I estimate a period of 3 years to get it right, source parts , a donor car and not putting a financial burden on ones pocket.
Yes it can be done with patience . time and money.
dreamgts
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2 PORSCHE 924 (CURRENT PROJECTS)
2 CLASSIC CORTINAS (FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT(FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT 132 2000CC(JUST PURCHASED)
4 SUV'S
2 SEDANS
1 OPEL PANEL VAN
WIFES SUZUKI ALTO |
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TJC
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Central-ish Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
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When I was toying with this idea a few years ago I got a catalog from GT Racing, www.GT-Racing.com and although I haven't used their products they do show quite a few body bits that you could use for a conversion to a LeMans body style including a 1 piece GTR style front (have to be modified in the grill area to look like a GTP, rear fenders, hood, scoop, doors, rear spoiler and so on. They even listed a fiberglass dash that looks similar to the GTR/GTP piece. The stuff is a bit pricy perhaps, and shipping to Malta might cost a fortune, but there are bits available. The catalog I have is from 2003, but I check their site every so often and I see they still are in business.
Damn, why did you have to bring this topic up?  Starting to get my creative juices flowing again. Must stop thinking about this, we're in the middle of building a house...no time for cars, no time for cars, no time for cars...wait, there's a 924S sitting in the garage...STOP...no time for cars...DAMN  !!!
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!
www.ttrs1.com |
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rom78
Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 96
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all,
First i'll demand you to excuse my poor english.
But when i have seen this post, i couldn't stay without saying that it's really nice to see this beautiful car in another place that the Porsche's museum.
Thank you very much TJC for those pictures. That's so rare to see details of this car.
To give my contribution to this post, i encourage you to see this beautiful retoration of Freisinger motorsport. (you certainly already know this)
http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/porsche/de/Porsche_Restauration_Detail/8.html
Maybe it could give to TJC a good base of images to explain us differences between the GTR and the GTP.
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Grenadiers
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3222
Location: Nelson, WI & Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hey TJC, I have a set of those rear fenders at our NM house. I do not plan on using them, I think they originated in Michigan, found their way to Arizona, and now they're in new mexico! We're moving back for the winter sometime in mid-october, if you're interested in them. cheap.
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dreamgts
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 504
Location: malta
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Grenadiers wrote: | | Hey TJC, I have a set of those rear fenders at our NM house. I do not plan on using them, I think they originated in Michigan, found their way to Arizona, and now they're in new mexico! We're moving back for the winter sometime in mid-october, if you're interested in them. cheap. |
If you ever decide moving over here (soon) bring them with you, i think i might find some storage for them. Dont worry about the beer we have some excellent lager here and its all on me
TJC, Im sorry if I brought the subject up right now, I might be in the same position as you are, still furnishing a new house, owner of 11 cars, 6 year old kid who seems to be costing me a fortune, in fact shes the one that urged me on the D Prod project believe it or not. Wife always wanting more etc. etc.
Thing is I LOVE CARS, cant stay without them, never have never will. Have you by any chance taken a look at the GTR link I mentioned earlier, they are located in the UK, so maybe shipping wont cost as much Id like you to comment on the kit since you seem to have seen and felt these cars in person, regarding GT Racing, I have visited theier site a few times and lately, it seems though that the kits you mention are NA= not available?????
The D prod project was chosen cause its different than what is usually done to the 924, lot of fellow members seem to convert to 924 Carrera GT, which is without doubt a very beautiful looking car. maybe i want to be different and the GTP/GTR is surely different . As far as Im concerned i would be happing to replicate one, park it in my lounge area and watch big screen TV from behind the windscreen.
i think Im gonna start taking notes about this car and how to build/replicate one, Im sure I could find somwhere to hide it untill I tell my wife I won the lottery or something.
thanks
dreamgts
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2 PORSCHE 924 (CURRENT PROJECTS)
2 CLASSIC CORTINAS (FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT(FINISHED)
1 CLASSIC FIAT 132 2000CC(JUST PURCHASED)
4 SUV'S
2 SEDANS
1 OPEL PANEL VAN
WIFES SUZUKI ALTO |
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TJC
Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 828
Location: Central-ish Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| rom78 wrote: | Hi all,
First i'll demand you to excuse my poor english.
But when i have seen this post, i couldn't stay without saying that it's really nice to see this beautiful car in another place that the Porsche's museum.
Thank you very much TJC for those pictures. That's so rare to see details of this car.
To give my contribution to this post, i encourage you to see this beautiful retoration of Freisinger motorsport. (you certainly already know this)
http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/porsche/de/Porsche_Restauration_Detail/8.html
Maybe it could give to TJC a good base of images to explain us differences between the GTR and the GTP. |
Looks like I may have another summer project  . I'll have to get busy and start scanning (actually get my wife to teach me how to properly start scanning!) a bunch of photos I have of 005 and 006.
Those of you that have seen 006 in the Porsche museum may enjoy seeing it before the restoration.
_________________
'95 BMW 318i/5 ..."Pearl"
'87 Porsche 944 NA... "Liebchen"
'02 Porsche Boxster..."Sunbeam"
'04 BMW X3..."Xander"
Still on the Prowl!
www.ttrs1.com |
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